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Recruit Leave: Ten Days That Cost The Marine Corps Millions

Photo by Cherie Cullen
Description: 

Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates, right, speaks with U.S. Marine Corps recruits at the Combat Conditioning Field, Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego, Calif., Aug. 13, 2010.

The School of Infantry East (SOI-E) administratively separated more than 150 new Marines in fiscal year 2011 for a myriad of disciplinary and medical reasons. Many of these medical and legal issues occurred over recruit leave. There is a travesty happening right now in the Marine Corps, but nothing is being done about it. Every year, the Marine Corps loses several hundreds of Marines to drugs, legal issues, and injuries during a single 10-day period—recruit leave.

Annually we attend training where we talk about never leaving a Marine behind, being a good buddy, and taking care of one another. But every year the Marine Corps sends thousands of young men and women home from recruit training back into the situations they were coming from. Many of these Marines have joined the Marine Corps to escape these dark situations and make a new life for themselves as Marines. But after a mere 12 weeks, we send them back into the home life they were trying to get away from.

Do not think that I am trying to denigrate the incredible change a Marine experiences from the yellow footprints to graduation from recruit training; this is one of the most formative experiences in any person’s life. However, the recruit training experience is only 3 months long. When these young, impressionable Marines return home on leave, the old bad habits are there waiting for them. Additionally, Marines who go on recruit leave are often swayed by the boyfriend or girlfriend back home who missed them so much, and they just can’t bear the thought of losing that once-in-a-lifetime relationship. These Marines return from recruit leave and simply refuse to train. Marines in this category are often processed for administrative separation.

It isn’t just misbehavior that is claiming Marines. Injuries are rampant during recruit leave. Car accidents have been proven to be more prevalent with young Marines, and recruit leave is no exception. It is easy to see why a Marine who has just been through 3 months of hell at boot camp and suddenly has every freedom possible is more likely to get injured or get into trouble.

The solution is incredibly simple. Put an end to recruit leave! This change would have the added benefit of enforcing the training mindset that is desperately needed. When the Marines return home, they are certainly proud of the accomplishment of becoming Marines, but they lose that vital training mindset. They get comfortable.

I propose that new Marines who graduate from Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego or Parris Island hop on a bus and continue training at SOI. After SOI graduation, they then drop to their MOS schools or for infantry Marines to the Operating Forces. This will maintain continuity for a single drop of Marines to their MOS schools or Operating Forces units.

The mantra preached during boot camp is that the fastest way out of boot camp is to do your time and move on. Recruits who try to cheat the system and get out of the Marine Corps in boot camp face a lengthy administrative process and often see their peers graduate while they are still stuck at the recruit depot. This obviously encourages recruits to stay the course if their desire is to get away from the recruit depot. If we end recruit leave, Marines would keep that mentality during SOI training. I believe they would hit the Operating Forces as a better product than they are now.

Additionally, SOI serves as a slow return to “normal” for the Marine. At boot camp recruits are broken down and then built back up. Drill instructors are not peers; they are feared givers of discipline. At SOI, combat instructors are given more leeway to take individual time with the Marines and mentor them. Again, this is not meant to denigrate the all-important role of the drill instructors and how they make Marines at the recruit depots. But at SOI, combat instructors can speak to the Marines on a more peer-to-peer level and continue the mentorship process.

The key objection I can see with this proposal is that the quality of Marine may suffer as a result. The prevailing thought is that Marines who get into trouble on recruit leave would probably get into trouble at some point in their careers, so it would be better to lose them now versus when they hit the Operating Forces. Yes, we want men and women who make good choices in the Marine Corps. But we need to give them every measure of guidance and mentorship before presenting them with a life-changing decision. You wouldn’t send a Marine into combat without thoroughly discussing the many possible ethical decisions he may face on the battlefield. I contend that 12 weeks of recruit training is not the full measure of leadership the Marine Corps has to offer. The idea that we are weeding out the bad from the good with recruit leave is spurious. We are in fact playing Russian roulette to the detriment of our young brothers in arms.

Recruit leave is not meant to be a weeding out process. Once a Marine graduates boot camp, he will be a Marine until the day he dies. Our job is not to look at a Marine’s past but to look to his future. If a commander can look his Marine in the eye and say, “I did all I could to help and mentor this Marine,” then he can be at peace with any outcome. Now we as a Corps must look ourselves in the mirror and ask, “Is our organization doing everything in its power to set our new Marines up for success?”

This is an easy fix. Other Services, such as the Air Force, have much fewer issues with this type of bad behavior on leave because the airmen are sent straight from boot camp to MOS school. This is saving the Air Force millions of dollars and, most importantly, airmen. There is no “officer leave” for Marine officers who graduate from Officer Candidates School, even though they are less likely to engage in such risky behaviors and have much lengthier courses at The Basic School and MOS schools waiting for them. This does not seem to diminish the quality of the officer corps. Why would it be a large detriment to the enlisted corps to end the recruit leave period?

We say Marines are our most precious resource. By ending this leave period, we can save hundreds of our fellow warriors from making poor choices that will negatively impact them for the rest of their lives.

Comments

Reruit Leave

I went to Parris Island two days before Thanksgiving, 1964. We graduated Feb. 1965. Leave was not an option. We boarded Grayhound busses which were in front of the barracks the following morning and went straight to Camp Geiger for two weeks of mess duty and then a full compliment of infantry training. We stepped back on civillian ground 26 March 1965. We were ready and then mature enough to handle leave. I have never understood why the Corps changed this policy. A friend of mine went to Ft. Jackson for Army basic training the same day I went to Parris Island and he was allowed to go home for Thanksgiving. I think the Corps is trying to be a little too kind and gentle. The Marine Corps is not the Army! Bite the bullet, make the change and go back to the no leave policy.

That's funny, because I

That's funny, because I didn't get leave after BCT and attended 7 consecutive months of training. I guess you're right, the Marine Corps is not the Army.

ORLY?

Then you look at how Marine Bootcamp is to Army Basic Training, 13 weeks of hell and anguish to 9 weeks of rainbows, unicorns, and dickcheese. I had my 10 days of leave, but I didn't go back home. I stayed with people that weren't going to get me into trouble. After that I didnt take leave for the next 2 1/2 years because of all the responsibilities I was given. I was doing SSgt things as a PFC. MOTIVATE! so yes Marine Corps is not the Army, but all this mothers of america trash is slowly morphing us into the Army.

REPL

Sorry Baby..The Army was not just rainbows..You must have that twisted with the Airf force or the Navy...every day we were running our buts off and marching every few days..Sleeping in tents with no heat in it for a week..We marched 12 miles with over 50 pounds in a ruck sack with water to ourknees in a thunderstorm...Rainbows......GOOODNIGHT**********

REPL

Sorry Baby..The Army was not just rainbows..You must have that twisted with the Airf force or the Navy...every day we were running our buts off and marching every few days..Sleeping in tents with no heat in it for a week..We marched 12 miles with over 50 pounds in a ruck sack with water to ourknees in a thunderstorm...Rainbows......GOOODNIGHT**********

As Marine Recruits....

we ran everyday, we drilled everday (we don't march), I remember sleeping in tents for more then just a week, and sometimes just under the stars, we did have heat though, unfortunately we couldn't control it, oh, 75 pound packs over 50 miles in 2 days. Double rainbows.....good morning.  I can't believe I even entertained this post.  Ignorant article.  No wonder I got out, nothing but a fuck*n pissing contest hahaha

Recruit Leave

My son graduated Boot Camp on December 21st 2011 and came home on 10 days leave and 21 days Recruitrers Assistant Duty.  As an "old timer," 35 years in the Corps I cautioned him to make good choices while on leave.  Once he began Recruiters Assistant Duty he didn't have time to get into trouble.  They kept him hopping 12 hours a day 6 days a week.  It gave him the opportunity to put into practice what he had learned in Boot Camp by providing physical training to the pooles. He worked very hard during those 3 weeks.  He maintained a good attitude, and excellent physical fitness going into MCT, were he excelled.  Now comes the real problem.  His MOS school is Aviation related in Pensacola FL.  He has a 3 to 4 month wait for his school to begin.  The reason, the student/instructor ratio is 2 to 1.  He was told that Pensacola has the higest incident of NJP in the Corps. There is little for these Marines to do. Since when can't NCOs find something for Marines to do.  Move rocks, resweep decks, go on organized runs, anything to keep them busy.  The argument that Recruit Leave is a waste of taxpayer funds is bogus.  Leave is leave.  They get 30 days a year which is programmed into the cost of a Marine. All leave counts.  Sitting around, getting into trouble, is a waste of taxpayer funds.  If someone from Pensacola reads this - take this for action. This hurry up and wait is taking it to the extreme and is a crime!  Hell bring me back on active duty and I will keep these Devil Dogs out of trouble.  CWO5 John Moist, Gig Harbor, WA. 

Im an enlisted Marine student in Pensacola

Pensacola does have an atrocious njp rate, they do keep us busy, by with more hurry up and wait, 1630 formations everyday, field day, pt in the mornings, mentoring in the mornings, watch at night, random walk throughs... They are downsizing though...

Hey Gunner, I concur!

I come from a long line of Marines so it was natural for my son to sign up too.  He went to San Diego (The rest of the family did PI).  After boot, he got 10 days leave, followed by 30 days recruiter's assistance, then he shipped to Buloxi for his A school.  That's an Air Force recreational/training base for those who don't know.  His school was backlogged for 8 months, so he basically became a civie again while waiting.  By the time he made it to the fleet, he already had almost 2 years in the Corps and what a culture shock he received when he landed back on a USMC base.  Yes, he also got an alcohol related NJP that cost him 2 stripes.

I got to tell ya.  When I was in the Corps, free time was something earned.  Leave wasn't a benefit, it was a privilege for those who earned it.  If the schools are that backlogged, then there's a bigger problem.  But I guarantee you that there are still more than a few noncoms and gunners who can occupy any young Marines time given the opportunity. 

The Pensacola Issue

I was a Marine in training in Pensacola, FL in 2004.  during the time period that I was station there my trianing detachment had one problem individual.  We dealt with him on the squad level, but inevitably we could not save him from himself.  He was dropped and reclassed as an 0311, God save them.
I should note that my class was particularly made up of older individuals (as were most of the students at that time) who had gained some life experiences from years working or attending college.  Long class-up periods (mine was 2 months) were not uncommon, but we had absolutely no NJPs for that period of time in my command. That all abruptly changed the day we received a large influx of new Marines for training.  They were younger, but there was a remarkable decline in the quality of the individual personality and work ethic.  As I was leaving for my first command I saw the first lock-down for daily field day inspections and extra PT that the command had had in years.
It did not improve with time, and neither did the calibur of the average young Marine who joined the Corps directly after highschool.  When I returned twice in 2007, once to evaluate and audit training and once as a "C" schooler NJPs and general issue were rampant.  In "C" school alone there were 3 NJP incidents in less than a month from the 80-100 Marines in training as "A" schoolers at a time.  The funny thing is- the second two occured after they "A" schoolers had already been back on lockdown because of the first occurance.
The bottom line: we've reached a critical time in our history as a nation and as a military where the quality of the young individual is in great decline (on average) due to the failure of the persons and families raising said individuals to possess the values necessary to be a responsible and reliable citizen in any occupation.
On a funny note, my wife was disgusted to find that, as part of her culinary program, her restaurant management course had a special chapter completely dedicated to managing "today's new working generation."  After a little research, I discovered that this problem has been recognized in several industries as requiring its own particular instruction.
Dave R., Sgt 04-09

Gunner Moist, Small world. I

Gunner Moist,
Small world. I was one of your son's recruiters. Unfortunately, I left before he returned from boot camp. EAS'd now studying Japanese in Kyoto. I was lucky enough to do the radio talk show with him prior to him shipping. He was one of our best poolees and I am sure a damn fine Marine.
Hopefully he makes the best of his time in Penscacola and can get to the fleet as soon as possible.
Semper Fi,
SSgt Weigman

With the all volunteer force

With the all volunteer force I am sure that the Corps is trying to remain competitive and boot leave is just another perk.  However, with the draw down this could all change.  I do not see a shortage of recruits on the horizon as the Corps is very popular with our local high school seniors.  With that said, I am a 35 year veteran of the Corps and we had no leave until we applied for it with our first FMF Unit. My first leave was at about my first year anniversary. If we are losing newly graduated Marines to stupid stuff, intentional or not this is a leadership problem.  Remember, it is not how you act when I am around; it is how you act when I am not around. These young men have just completed 13 weeks of the most challenging-rigorous training on the face of the earth. Could it be that the training is so lacking in self discipline that the minute they are away from the Depot that it all goes out the window.  I find this hard to believe after witnessing a number of “new” Marines on leave.  They are so proud and carry themselves so well that even my buttons burst with pride.  My son just graduated from Boot Camp on December 21, 2011.  He came home on 10 days Boot Leave and 21 days Recruiter's Assistant Leave.  His recruiter kept him busy 12 hours a day 6 days a week.  He was able to apply some of what he learned in Boot Camp as he was put in charge of Poole physical fitness training.  This kept him mentally sharp and in great physical shape.  Perhaps the new Marines on leave should be required to check in with their Recruiters periodically, even by phone.  Where I see a huge problem is the wait some Marines have before beginning their MOS training.  My son is now in Pensacola, Fl and he has a 3-4 month wait before class begins.  There is no mess duty like in the “old days” or guard duty or making small rocks out of big rocks; nothing to keep them busy and focused.  My son told me that Pensacola has the highest rate of NJP among Marines awaiting school in the Corps.  Once again a serious leadership problem!  Hell, bring me back on active duty and I will ensure that these young Marines remain focused and busy until their class begins.  As an aside, I still fear and respect the UCMJ and I have been a retired CWO5 for 12 years

I attended training in

I attended training in Pensacola for about 8 months for "a" school.  I only had to wait a month to class up, but there was plenty to keep Marines busy. I was there for the beginning of 2004, and we had leadership courses, pt, watch, and other things to keep us busy.  But this is a leadership issue, I was only in for 5 years and I saw a drastic change in the quality of Marines from when I first entered to when my EAS came around. Oh and by the way, leave after bootcamp is not a problem, Marines being irresponsible is the problem.

Pass??What's that?

They must have been stationed at Fort Dix aka DisneyLand.I did my basic at Ft.Jackson and didn't get a *pass* for Thanksgiving.We got leave after we graduated a few days before Christmas,because everything would be closed until Jan 3rd when we was due back to start A.I.T school.This was back in 1986.

The reason for boot leave

During the 13 weeks on Parris Island, a recruit builds 7.5 days of leave. Boot leave is given to put them back in 'the hole' with regards to leave before hitting up SOI and MOS school and to give them a chance to de-stress after 13 of the most intense weeks of their lives.

Discarding boot leave and expecting these young Marines to go from mom's couch to 6 or more straight months of intense mental and physical training will cost the Marine Corps more than a few bad apples who apparently didn't pay attention in boot camp. They will crack.

Instead of losing Marines to drugs or legal issues that apparently even USMC Boot Camp couldn't deter them from, we will lose even more Marines to emotional or mental breakdowns, desertions, suicides and even more legal and drug related issues than we currently face as these young men and women act out.

If that's not enough reason to let these new Marines take some well earned leave, consider that after completing all their training; Boot Camp, SOI, MOS school. These young marines will hit the fleet with 20+ days of leave on the books and an intense and justifiable reason to take it, as they're checking into their first duty station. How much training and basic MOS familiarization will they miss out on because they took their leave then? And, if they'll get into 'stupid mistakes' trouble fresh out of boot camp, do you really think they wont while blowing off 6 months or more worth of steam?

Sgt Hurlock

Power down their 'Old Corps'.

Power down their 'Old Corps'.  After 13 weeks of beating the crap out of someone, both mentally and physically, a 10 day break is vital anyone mental well being.  These are people, not machines.

Good Article!

I believe 1stLt Durbin makes some valid points in this article and I would be inclind to agree with his recommendations. I never understood the Boot Leave Myself and saw a number of Marines who got themselves into trouble back home while I was on Recruiting.  As a SNCOIC in the Fleet I had kids who showed up Married with a Wife in Tow and no money in their pocket to Camp Pendleton.

Giving them time to Mature into the Marine Corps and get past the Recruit Mentality would be a good thing and go a long ways towards improving a Marines chances of completing their first Enlistment.

GunnyL

Question of Implementation

I think even if the new Marines were just taken to SOI first and given a chance to get snapped into the bunks and wall locker, it would eliminate the unknown after recruit training.

Infantilizing our junior Marines

We could also eliminate liberty incidents by eliminating liberty, alcohol-related incidents by eliminating alcohol, and bad decision-making by eliminating any choices.  These are young men and women, not children.  Hold them accountable if they do something wrong.  Otherwise, they have earned the time off.

Major F

Agreed

I'm going to go with Major F on this one, sheltering Marines is both ridiculous and demoralizing. If they're old enough to go through bootcamp they're old enough to make their own desicions, regardless of how stupid said desicions may be. Keeping them in a constant training loop is just going to make them get even more wild after they get they're givin leave (refer to 'returning from the suck'). Everyon makes mistakes, let them take the ramifications and move on, whether that be in the corps or not.

First of all eliminating

First of all eliminating liberty is a bad idea they use that time to relax see family and friends depending on how long it is second of all eliminating alcohol docent change much seeings as most marines aren't old enough to drink and third most marines don't get to make choices unless they are off duty because the CO's make the decisions and the marines do hold them accountable for there actions

Infantilizing

Major F has it all wrong and young Danny has it right. Those Marines should be kept locked away from the real world for AT LEAST nine months without a break and that will ensure that, once they are released from detention training they will always act in a mature, law-abiding, and civilized manner. [SNROGFH!!!]

Recruit Leave?

I might plead ignorance here but why is it called Recruit Leave? Are these Marines or recruits?

recruit leave

I must have served in a totaly different CORPS than you all. I enlisted in 1978 before I was even out of high school, went to SAN DIEGO for three mounths ( hottest part of the year no less) when we GRADUATED we were MARINES not recruits. I was GRANTED a 15 day leave to allow me to reach my MOS school, the CORPS was kind enough to route me through my home town, but I didnt have enough time to hardly say hi to friends and family before I had to head out. After school I got 15 day leave before I had to be in CAMP PENDLETON so I could ship out to my first permanent duty station, spent another year and a half saving up enough days to go home to see everyone, because all leave was counted aginst what the CORPS allowed you. if you cant stay out of trouble it does not matter how long you have in the service any branch. I am proud of my families long military history, a great great uncle in WWI my father was ARMY-AIR CORPS in WWII and KOREA, one brother in the AIR FORCE, one in the NAVY along with an great uncle and two cousins who put 30yrs in each that only left the MARINES for me. SEMPER FI

Infantalizing our Marines?

Sir, the point remains that these ten days, often extended to 14 days, 21 days or even 31 days (!!!) due to Permissive Recruiters Assitance Support Program (PRASP) gets young Marines who have three months "experience" out of the Marine Corps mindset.  There will be plenty of opportunities for these Marines to make choices in their career.  More than plenty!  But before we put them in that compromising situation, we should give them the full measure of Marine Corps leadership.  3 months of Boot Camp is not enough!  If it was, we wouldn't need to continue to mentor our Marines. 

I definately agree that we are very focused on taking decision-making out of the hands of the Marines, and that is inconsistent with a Warfighting-Based organization.  But we need not force the issue 12 weeks into their career. 

Captain (got promoted!) Durbin

seriously

that is a great idea captain I never went to boot camp! Hey I know maybe all OCS candidates could be restricted to the form for the first 2 years of college! Where did they find you. I hope they put you in some FMF unit and some crusty gunny sets you straight.

 

overtime pay?

Since you are so good at counting beans try this one.

3 months of boot camp =2160hrs

3 months of boot pay   =$4473.00

divide $4473.00 by 2160 hrs  that's about $2.00 an hour you are paying these kids.

$4473.00 for 3 months of 24/7 ?

Oh thats what a Captian makes in one month while his SNCOs and NCOs do his job for him.

Leave and Liberty are a huge morale issue for these young devil pups. BUT...........

I bet if you adjust the pay to hourly for MCRD and SOI you will have Marines on a waiting list to skip boot leave and get to your school.

Does your billet at SOI have you jaded. It's a numbers game! You should know x% will never come back from leave. Good riddance.

I say, you take 10 days of boot leave and never come back!

 

we should hang out... lol

i just want to say that reading this made my day... as a 25 year old cpl i joined the corps in late 2008. i must say that in my 3 1/2 years in the marine corps this has been the worst financial struggle ive ever had to face in my life. ive lived on my own since the age of 17 and bc of my family situation where both my parents couldnt work ive been working to pay the bills since i was 14. so as you can imagine ive actually lived a life befor the marine corps. ive always had a really good paying job as a dozer operator and doing side jobs as a diesel mech. i never had to ever worry about money or if i was going to have  enough to make ends meet until i joined this circus. most kids come into the corps straight out of high school and they have around 4 Gs in their pockets after boot camp, and they think they have all the money in the world. this being because theyve never had a real job and never been off of their mothers tit for more than a week. i think my first year in the corps i made 14,900 some odd dolars... that is pathetic. i worked for waste management for nearly 4 years as a diesel mech and part time dozer operator and i made 53 thousand a year. i honestly cannot wait to get out of the marines. if it werent for the benefits i recieve now and needing my honorable discharge to aquire a good job when i get out... i would have taken leave 3 years ago and never came back.  also on top of the shitty pay i have boot ocs graduates with 2 years of college experience and about 19 years old talking to me about life and desicion making and yada yada the list goes on about the things they will say to insult my intelligence. thats also one of the other things i have a hard time with is biting my tongue when i have more years and more experience than they will ever have on me. A man isnt made by the rank he carries on his collar. a man is made by experience. a man is made by his word and the quality of it. i joined the marine corps because i thought this branch of the service was the most elite, and i thought that here i would be treated like a man. boy was i wrong.

very disgruntled devil dog!

The nerve

Man...the nerve of the Marine Corps...to put people in charge of you??? A 3 and a half year Corporal???  Grow up and realize that you voluntarily joined a structured organization that is a lot bigger than you are.  Everyone gets the same opportunities, and starts on the same level.  No one cares about what kind of job you had before, or how much money you made.  You signed a contract.  Be a man and do your damn job to the best of your abilities, then maybe your superiors will start treating you like a man.

-Sgt Mac

What the heck?

As a Corproal of Marines you should not be bitching but instructing our new devil dogs in this crazy game that is the Marines. You claim that you joined the most elite branch. well guess what partner I know I did. you must be a POG who gets stuck behind a desk well guess what? if you ever want to meet a real NCO who doesn't bitch about what the Marine Corps have given him go talk to any Grunt NCO. Guarenteed they will slap the taste out of your mouth for even uttering those words.

 

Cpl Williams

3/6 Echo co

i like your comments. i have ine question

hi, i dont know you, i dont know anybody from usmc until know a guy who is having the same problems with it. he is in there for 3 years and he wants to leave. but he said that he has to have a fiancee or wife to apply for his leave. is it true? how can a simple person get a apply to take someone from there? is it possible? i dont know him personally, but he seems to be a nice guy and wasting his time in there. i like him and i wanted to help him to leave, but i m not american and i have no idea about apply for leave usmc. if you can help me, i appreciate!!!! thank you

Will your next Gazette

Will your next Gazette article as a Captain feature you arguing that enlisted Marines are too untrustworthy for the barracks, and must be locked inside a squad bay at night?  Or that they shouldn't be allowed leave except for family emergencies?

OCS? TBS?

I'd like to know your opinion on allowing newly commissioned Second Lieutenants time off after OCS, or upon graduation from the Naval Academy.  As a mustang, I went threw both bootcamp and OCS - and obviously TBS. Many new green officers got basket leave between OCS and TBS.  Additionally, there are plenty of incidents that happen to officers while at TBS such as DUIs and fraternization.  

Basket Leave?

That would've been cool.  Unfortanately, not everyone was granted that priviledge as it is not (as far as I know, granted on a regular basis).

The relationship between

The relationship between officers and men should in no sense be that of superior and inferior, nor that of master and servant, but rather that of teacher and scholar. In fact, it should partake of the nature of the relationship between father and son, to the extent that officers, especially commanding officers, are responsible for the physical, mental, and moral welfare, as well as the discipline and military training of the young men under their command. - Maj. Gen. John A. Lejeune, 1920

Sometimes a parent has to let his children fail.  That's how they learn.  We teach them, we mentor them.  Sometime they fall on their asses.  If we can't trust a Marine to go back to his hometown for 10 days or even 30, then how can we trust him in the field?

We are succumbing to a zero-defect mindset.  The policies prescribed in the article are those that suit leaders more afraid of failure than those who actually pursue victory.  Victory requires risk.  Along the way it requires trusting one's subordinates.  

Yes.  As a leader you will find yourself trusting your future to these Marines.  Yes, sometimes they will let you down.  Some leaders live in terminal fear that some Lance Corporal will F-up their perfect plans and try to do everything in their powers to prevent it.  Those leaders aren't worthy of being Marines.  

Marines will rise to a challenge, given the chance.  Unfortunately, leaders afraid of failure seek to eliminate all risk of it.  If you can't trust a Marine in garrison, will he have the guts to make hard choices in the field, or will he have to call higher?

 

 


Very well spoken Sir

Your words are rich and genuine!

It brings a thought to mind of recent events. The SECDEF did not trust the Marines recently in Afghanistan when he asked that they disarm before he spoke to them. Perhaps he needs some course work from the War College!

 

150 Marines in a fiscal year,

150 Marines in a fiscal year, 5 Companies running training at SOI East (But no idea how many Marines are in one Company). While it's a shame that even that many people are throwing their lives away, the numbers are still small. I honestly doubt that removing those ten days of leave will turn things around

Great Idea LT

You can never trust a Marine.  Lock em up and feed em bread and water I say.

It's the final test

If you cannot stay out of trouble for ten days' unsupervised leave, it's better that the Corps find out NOW than after they spend 29 days at SOI and another 6 months at an expensive, low-density high-demand technical school (I'm looking at YOU, MATSG-21).

Coming back late

After their leave not wanting to report back, when they do come back I think you should keep them anyway, after all they did enlist. They are throwing their future away. This is personal for me. She is a good person and I hate to see her leave. She just doesn't know what's good for her

Stupid Boot Lieutenants

If this is the sort of officer they're bringing in now then I'm glad I got out.

Lt Durbin here doesn't really have room to talk since this was probably involved in his colllegiate career: http://terminallance.com/2010/06/25/terminal-lance-46-educated-leadership/

If he wants to take away boot leave, fine.  But that means OCS and TBS students should sacrifice their weekend liberty.  How about you also extend OCS to the same length as recruit training?  I hope his future Fleet SNCOs read the Gazette so they can give this genius some friendly advice about how to actually be a half decent leader.  Otherwise, the Lieutenant has a rough career ahead of him.

It's about the culture

Way to oversimplify things and miss the point. Yeah, if only we get rid of those pesky 10 days off after three months of 24/7 indoctrination, then ALL the entry level issues Marines suffer can be eliminated! Except that these entry level issues aren't, they will tempt Marines throughout their lives. Boot Camp is not just a training evolution, it is an aculturation period. In truth, the training you actually get is how to BE a Marine, not how to DO Marine things. If that doesn't take during Boot Camp, it never will and Boot Leave will be the least of your worries.

Boot Leave serves a threefold purpose: 1) allowing newly minted Marines some time to blow off steam and to let sink in the fact that they have (perhaps for the first time in their lives) accomplished something, 2) showing their families and the public at large what kind of change may be wrought by a mere three months of intense Marine Corps training, and 3) putting that young Marine's newly learned outlook to the test by showing him what he has left behind in light of what he is taking up.

Your advocacy of denying leave to young Marines is absolutely useless if they are still to be granted liberty: the same temptations are out there whether they are released for two days or ten. In short, this is not merely a bad idea, it is uselessly harsh, serves no real purpose, and could quite possibly do more harm than good (ask any recently redeployed unit what happens when they come back after an extended deployment). A good, well trained Marine will hold his own no matter what the world throws at him, but a bad one will continue to screw up regardless of where he is or what officer or NCO/SNCO is "mentoring" him.

This letter is like suggesting amputation for a papercut and says more about what the writer thinks of the enlised Marine than anything else. Here's a tip from a former SNCO: better to keep your mouth shut and be thought an idiot than to open it and remove all doubt. Do some young Marines run into problems when they are released from Boot Camp? Absolutely. But implying that junior enlisted men are simply too immature (or stupid) to handle themselves without adult supervision is insulting at the very least.

I've been through both Boot Camp and ROTC, and frankly I would trust my Drill Instructors to instill more responsibility and esprit de corps in three months of constant training than my ROTC cadre in four years of twice a week "labs" in competition with the rest of what college has to "offer." Have a little faith in the enlisted, Captain, because they're the ones who will make or break you, and they do not appreciate being talked down to.

Thank you LT

Punish the many for the mistakes of the few. Good thinking LT.

Thanks for reminding of why I got out of the Marine Corps... an elitist officer corps that thinks anyone stupid enough to enlist in the Marine Corps deserves to be punished.

Now we're talking! Right on!

First of all, I'm glad everyone is talking about the issue!  As a former Airman (yes, you should begin hurling abuse my way...now) I did not get leave after completion of boot camp.  Also, as I noted in the editorial, officers are not mandated leave After OCS.  I would have no problem with OCS being lengthened to 12 weeks, then turning the new officers straight over to The Basic School.  That is generally how it works right now. 

I am sorry if the tenor of the article came off as anti-enlisted, definately not my intent! Again, I was prior enlisted.  I've ran most of these ideas past several SNCOs and NCOs and they agree that Recruit Leave does not have any major benefits for the Marine Corps.  Overall, the numbers we lose every fiscal year is a tiny percentage of our total throughput, no doubt about it!  But if we can do better, why shouldn't we try? 

Again, I'm glad people are talking about the issue.  And yes, I can take the heat!  If you want to know what kind of an officer I am, talk to my former Marines and NCOs.  If they say I'm terrible, they are right.

Captain Durbin

Well i agree that the marine

Well i agree that the marine corps does lose alot of marines during their 10 day leave, however; there is always going to be that 10% of shit heads who are going to mess it up for everyone else.  During my four years in the marine corps i recall getting a safety brief every weekend and it never failed there was always atleast 2 every weekend to mess it up for the rest of the company.  I personally beleive that after boot camp the young marines should be able to go home and let those who are friends, family and who had their doubts about them see what a man they have become.  Not all are bad and its a chance to have some time to yourself after bootcamp.  I remember that even when i went back to SOI after leave that i felt better than ever after getting support from friends and family. For those who are talking negative about Cpt. Durbin he is a great Marine and a great leader.  He was my plt commander during my tour in Afghanistan.  Im not just saying this to kiss ass because i do recall him being there when i got my company NJP but he does have good intentions.  I can understand how some may seem to get upset with his article but he is just making a suggestion.  This is America and we are aloud to use our 1st amendment. 

 

Broughton

Every one is a man before they join the Corps

We were all men before we joined the Corps. Each of us were at least 18 (or 17 with parental consent) and capable of making our own decisions. There is no reason to change recruit leave. The reason recruits are given leave and officers aren't is because they have gone from high school to a comittment, whereas officers have gone from relatively freedom to a comittment. Officers have had the choice of freedom prior to being babysat and therefore do not receive guaranteed leave after OCS. It is apples to oranges and should not be compared. The young men that take on a comittment of which they may or may not understand deserve some leave to recover from recruit training, which is COMPLETELY different than officer training. The burden is placed on the the Lance Corporals and NCOs. THEY are the ones doing the majority of the work. THEY are the ones primarily dying for their country. THEY are the ones listening to the officer with which no one agrees. THEY are the ones standing watch, patrolling, sweeping for IEDs, posting security while the officer has a shura with local nationals, etc. It's too bad that child labor laws don't apply to our young 0311s that show up to formation at 0600 and leave after "the word" is passed at 1800 making an annual income below the national poverty level. The reason officers exist is to take care of the men, not themselves. I have seen far too many officers worry about their own career and progression to ever stand up for a young man that sacrificies everything. It's no wonder every war movie ever created depicts officers as incompetent fools. I couldn't take it any longer and decided to resign. I despies the fact that fellow officers would make "Lance Corporal" remarks when referring to acts of stupidity. It's appauling. I have seen far less intelligent actions occur during my tenure at TBS than during my time in the fleet. My brother, brother-in-law, father, aunt, uncle, etc were all enlisted. I decided to become an officer to make a difference, but it is impossible with individuals who are only concerned only with themselves and their career. Did I forget to mention that I went to TBS with Lt Durbin. Yes he's an idiot..

As the saying goes, "Marines ain't made in Quantico." 

 

Capt T

Well, I suppose the Jury is in!

As I have said in multiple posts, I did not write this from an anti-enlisted standpoint.  And I agree 100% that the enlisted Marine is a superhero compared to a Marine officer.  I know that standing a post is a lot tougher than lounging in a COC!  I have forwarded the editorial to a lot of my Marines who are out of the Marine Corps now, and plenty have disagreed with my points, no doubt about it. 

I have re-read the article three times and I really don't get the privaleged officer standpoint, sorry!  Yes, I am focusing on mission accomplishment over the comfort and desires of the individual.  If that makes me a spoiled officer, then I apologize.  I love my Marines as much as my own family.  I just don't think this policy sets them up for sucess. 

And to Capt T, pretty easy to sling it on the internet, but after not getting career designated you're whinning about how you spent your career taking care of enlisted and that's why you're out?  Yeah, not buying it.  Put a name to it.  I did. 

Didn't get designated

Did you?

Quality in quality out!

Recruit quality people and they will make quality Marines! As a retired 1stSgt, it was my observation that the vast majority of marines being discharged within a year of their enlistment should have never been allowed in!

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