The Marine Corps Times recently published a handful of articles in regard to opening Infantry Officer Course (IOC) to females and the possibility of integrating women into the infantry community. In mid-April the Commandant directed the “integration” of the first wave of female officers into IOC this summer following completion of The Basic School (TBS). This action may or may not pave the way for female Marines to serve in the infantry as the results remain to be seen. However, before the Marine Corps moves forward with this concept, should we not ask the hard questions and gain opinions of combat-experienced Marines (male and female alike) as to the purpose, the impact, and the gains from such a move? As a combat-experienced Marine officer, and a female, I am here to tell you that we are not all created equal, and attempting to place females in the infantry will not improve the Marine Corps as the Nation’s force-in-readiness or improve our national security.
As a company grade 1302 combat engineer officer with 5 years of active service and two combat deployments, one to Iraq and the other to Afghanistan, I was able to participate in and lead numerous combat operations. In Iraq as the II MEF Director, Lioness Program, I served as a subject matter expert for II MEF, assisting regimental and battalion commanders on ways to integrate female Marines into combat operations. I primarily focused on expanding the mission of the Lioness Program from searching females to engaging local nationals and information gathering, broadening the ways females were being used in a wide variety of combat operations from census patrols to raids. In Afghanistan I deployed as a 1302 and led a combat engineer platoon in direct support of Regimental Combat Team 8, specifically operating out of the Upper Sangin Valley. My platoon operated for months at a time, constructing patrol bases (PBs) in support of 3d Battalion, 5th Marines; 1st Battalion, 5th Marines; 2d Reconnaissance Battalion; and 3d Battalion, 4th Marines. This combat experience, in particular, compelled me to raise concern over the direction and overall reasoning behind opening the 03XX field.
Who is driving this agenda? I am not personally hearing female Marines, enlisted or officer, pounding on the doors of Congress claiming that their inability to serve in the infantry violates their right to equality. Shockingly, this isn’t even a congressional agenda. This issue is being pushed by several groups, one of which is a small committee of civilians appointed by the Secretary of Defense called the Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Service (DACOWITS). Their mission is to advise the Department of Defense (DoD) on recommendations, as well as matters of policy, pertaining to the well-being of women in the Armed Services from recruiting to employment. Members are selected based on their prior military experience or experience with women’s workforce issues. I certainly applaud and appreciate DACOWITS’ mission; however, as it pertains to the issue of women in the infantry, it’s very surprising to see that none of the committee members are on active duty or have any recent combat or relevant operational experience relating to the issue they are attempting to change. I say this because, at the end of the day, it’s the active duty servicemember who will ultimately deal with the results of their initiatives, not those on the outside looking in. As of now, the Marine Corps hasn’t been directed to integrate, but perhaps the Corps is anticipating the inevitable—DoD pressuring the Corps to comply with DACOWITS’ agenda as the Army has already “rogered up” to full integration. Regardless of what the Army decides to do, it’s critical to emphasize that we are not the Army; our operational speed and tempo, along with our overall mission as the Nation’s amphibious force-in-readiness, are fundamentally different than that of our sister Service. By no means is this distinction intended as disrespectful to our incredible Army. My main point is simply to state that the Marine Corps and the Army are different; even if the Army ultimately does fully integrate all military occupational fields, that doesn’t mean the Corps should follow suit.
I understand that there are female servicemembers who have proven themselves to be physically, mentally, and morally capable of leading and executing combat-type operations; as a result, some of these Marines may feel qualified for the chance of taking on the role of 0302. In the end, my main concern is not whether women are capable of conducting combat operations, as we have already proven that we can hold our own in some very difficult combat situations; instead, my main concern is a question of longevity. Can women endure the physical and physiological rigors of sustained combat operations, and are we willing to accept the attrition and medical issues that go along with integration?
As a young lieutenant, I fit the mold of a female who would have had a shot at completing IOC, and I am sure there was a time in my life where I would have volunteered to be an infantryman. I was a star ice hockey player at Bowdoin College, a small elite college in Maine, with a major in government and law. At 5 feet 3 inches I was squatting 200 pounds and benching 145 pounds when I graduated in 2007. I completed Officer Candidates School (OCS) ranked 4 of 52 candidates, graduated 48 of 261 from TBS, and finished second at MOS school. I also repeatedly scored far above average in all female-based physical fitness tests (for example, earning a 292 out of 300 on the Marine physical fitness test). Five years later, I am physically not the woman I once was and my views have greatly changed on the possibility of women having successful long careers while serving in the infantry. I can say from firsthand experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not just emotion, that we haven’t even begun to analyze and comprehend the gender-specific medical issues and overall physical toll continuous combat operations will have on females.
I was a motivated, resilient second lieutenant when I deployed to Iraq for 10 months, traveling across the Marine area of operations (AO) and participating in numerous combat operations. Yet, due to the excessive amount of time I spent in full combat load, I was diagnosed with a severe case of restless leg syndrome. My spine had compressed on nerves in my lower back causing neuropathy which compounded the symptoms of restless leg syndrome. While this injury has certainly not been enjoyable, Iraq was a pleasant experience compared to the experiences I endured during my deployment to Afghanistan. At the beginning of my tour in Helmand Province, I was physically capable of conducting combat operations for weeks at a time, remaining in my gear for days if necessary and averaging 16-hour days of engineering operations in the heart of Sangin, one of the most kinetic and challenging AOs in the country. There were numerous occasions where I was sent to a grid coordinate and told to build a PB from the ground up, serving not only as the mission commander but also the base commander until the occupants (infantry units) arrived 5 days later. In most of these situations, I had a sergeant as my assistant commander, and the remainder of my platoon consisted of young, motivated NCOs. I was the senior Marine making the final decisions on construction concerns, along with 24-hour base defense and leading 30 Marines at any given time. The physical strain of enduring combat operations and the stress of being responsible for the lives and well-being of such a young group in an extremely kinetic environment were compounded by lack of sleep, which ultimately took a physical toll on my body that I couldn’t have foreseen.
By the fifth month into the deployment, I had muscle atrophy in my thighs that was causing me to constantly trip and my legs to buckle with the slightest grade change. My agility during firefights and mobility on and off vehicles and perimeter walls was seriously hindering my response time and overall capability. It was evident that stress and muscular deterioration was affecting everyone regardless of gender; however, the rate of my deterioration was noticeably faster than that of male Marines and further compounded by gender-specific medical conditions. At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.
There is a drastic shortage of historical data on female attrition or medical ailments of women who have executed sustained combat operations. This said, we need only to review the statistics from our entry-level schools to realize that there is a significant difference in the physical longevity between male and female Marines. At OCS the attrition rate for female candidates in 2011 was historically low at 40 percent, while the male candidates attrite at a much lower rate of 16 percent. Of candidates who were dropped from training because they were injured or not physically qualified, females were breaking at a much higher rate than males, 14 percent versus 4 percent. The same trends were seen at TBS in 2011; the attrition rate for females was 13 percent versus 5 percent for males, and 5 percent of females were found not physically qualified compared with 1 percent of males. Further, both of these training venues have physical fitness standards that are easier for females; at IOC there is one standard regardless of gender. The attrition rate for males attending IOC in 2011 was 17 percent. Should female Marines ultimately attend IOC, we can expect significantly higher attrition rates and long-term injuries for women.
There have been many working groups and formal discussions recently addressing what changes would be necessary to the current IOC period of instruction in order to accommodate both genders without producing an underdeveloped or incapable infantry officer. Not once was the word “lower” used, but let’s be honest, “modifying” a standard so that less physically or mentally capable individuals (male or female) can complete a task is called “lowering the standard”! The bottom line is that the enemy doesn’t discriminate, rounds will not slow down, and combat loads don’t get any lighter, regardless of gender or capability. Even more so, the burden of command does not diminish for a male or female; a leader must gain the respect and trust of his/her Marines in combat. Not being able to physically execute to the standards already established at IOC, which have been battle tested and proven, will produce a slower operational speed and tempo resulting in increased time of exposure to enemy forces and a higher risk of combat injury or death. For this reason alone, I would ask everyone to step back and ask themselves, does this integration solely benefit the individual or the Marine Corps as a whole, as every leader’s focus should be on the needs of the institution and the Nation, not the individual?
Which leads one to really wonder, what is the benefit of this potential change? The Marine Corps is not in a shortage of willing and capable young male second lieutenants who would gladly take on the role of infantry officers. In fact we have men fighting to be assigned to the coveted position of 0302. In 2011, 30 percent of graduating TBS lieutenants listed infantry in their top three requested MOSs. Of those 30 percent, only 47 percent were given the MOS. On the other hand, perhaps this integration is an effort to remove the glass ceiling that some observers feel exists for women when it comes to promotions to general officer ranks. Opening combat arms MOSs, particularly the infantry, such observers argue, allows women to gain the necessary exposure of leading Marines in combat, which will then arguably increase the chances for female Marines serving in strategic leadership assignments. As stated above, I have full faith that female Marines can successfully serve in just about every MOS aside from the infantry. Even if a female can meet the short-term physical, mental, and moral leadership requirements of an infantry officer, by the time that she is eligible to serve in a strategic leadership position, at the 20-year mark or beyond, there is a miniscule probability that she’ll be physically capable of serving at all. Again, it becomes a question of longevity.
Despite my personal opinion regarding the incorporation of females into the infantry community, I am not blind to the fact that females play a key role in countering the gender and cultural barriers we are facing at war, and we do have a place in combat operations. As such, a potential change that I do recommend considering strongly for female Marine officers is to designate a new secondary MOS (0305) for a Marine serving as female engagement team (FET) officer in charge (OIC). 0305s would be employed in the same way we employ drill instructors, as we do not need an enduring FET entity but an existing capability able to stand up based on operational requirements. Legitimizing a program that is already operational in the Corps would greatly benefit both the units utilizing FETs and the women who serve as FET OICs. Unfortunately, FET OICs today are not properly screened and trained for this mission. I propose that those being considered for FET OIC be prescreened and trained through a modified IOC with an appropriately adjusted physical expectation. FET OICs need to better understand the infantry culture and mindset and work with their 0302 brethren to incorporate FET assistance during specific phases of operations to properly prepare them to serve as the subject matter experts to a regimental- or battalion-level infantry commander. Through joint OIC training, both 0302s and FET OICs can start to learn how to integrate capabilities and accomplish their mission individually and collectively. This, in my mind, is a much more viable, cost-effective solution, with high reward for the Marine Corps and the Nation, and it will also directly improve the capabilities of FET OICs.
Finally, what are the Marine Corps standards, particularly physical fitness standards, based on—performance and capability or equality? We abide by numerous discriminators, such as height and weight standards. As multiple Marine Corps Gazette articles have highlighted, Marines who can run first-class physical fitness tests and who have superior MOS proficiency are separated from the Service if they do not meet the Marine Corps’ height and weight standards. Further, tall Marines are restricted from flying specific platforms, and color blind Marines are faced with similar restrictions. We recognize differences in mental capabilities of Marines when we administer the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery and use the results to eliminate/open specific fields. These standards are designed to ensure safety, quality, and the opportunity to be placed in a field in which one can sustain and succeed.
Which once again leads me, as a ground combat-experienced female Marine Corps officer, to ask, what are we trying to accomplish by attempting to fully integrate women into the infantry? For those who dictate policy, changing the current restrictions associated with women in the infantry may not seem significant to the way the Marine Corps operates. I vehemently disagree; this potential change will rock the foundation of our Corps for the worse and will weaken what has been since 1775 the world’s most lethal fighting force. In the end, for DACOWITS and any other individual or organization looking to increase opportunities for female Marines, I applaud your efforts and say thank you. However, for the long-term health of our female Marines, the Marine Corps, and U.S. national security, steer clear of the Marine infantry community when calling for more opportunities for females. Let’s embrace our differences to further hone in on the Corps’ success instead of dismantling who we are to achieve a political agenda. Regardless of the outcome, we will be “Semper Fidelis” and remain focused on our mission to protect and defend the United States of America.




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Comments
Women in the Infantry
Capt Petronio's article is well written, researched, and supported with real world experience. The DoD and the Congress need to read this article. Men and women are different and that is by design.
Women in the Infantry
" The DoD and the Congress need to read this article. Men and women are different and that is by design."
Fat chance o that. Never tlet the facts get in the way of ideology...
Women in the infantry
All the responses to this article is well versed. I am a retired CSM and served proudly in the Army Infantry and Special Forces. I have served in combat in Panama, Iraq (desert storm), Kosavo, Somalia, Iraq (Iraqi freedom), Afganistan and many other ops! My body is a wreck! I have observed male and female alike attempt to exceed thier abilities for years. I am now a Chief of Police and I have observed this in law enforcement. Allow the females the chance to succeed but make no concessions in statndards for gender (Physical fitness test, hieght and wieght standards, ect.). Equial Oppertunity. There are those that can do and those that can't! Our Military is an all Volunteer so let them! Good Luck!!! De Oppresso Liber!!!!!
Well you are the very first
Well you are the very first guy in SF that I have heard say such a thing. I am doubting that you even were SF. And we all know that CSM means politician in todays army. The lady is right women cannot perform to mens standards. First there needs to be no gender seperation in sports where at least it wont get people killed. The military is no place for social experimentation and if you support it then you support putting peoples lives at risk for your own social view.
CSM's and politics.
As also a retired CSM, having served in the US Army's Special Operations Civil Affairs & Psychological Command in a number of the geo-political and wartime areas named by the SF CSM, I respectfully submit that the rank CSM, particularly at the Battalion and Brigade levels, is not indicative of a political assignment. Politics can play into the roles of senior militay advisers, however it's in the character of the individual which separates himself and his assigned duty from a self-serving political role. By suggesting that the CSM rank along with the perception that the SF CSM in question could be political in his loyalties, is a grave miscalculation by the author.
IAW the comments the Special Forces CSM stating his rank, his experience and position are dubious and suscpect, without knowing the individual, is another error on the part of the critic. Life has taught me that, despite appearances and perceptions, it is first best to take a man at his word.
CMSs and Politics
That's funny, life, especially in the military has taught me that trust is earned; not given.
WOMEN IN COMBAT
The military is and has been our country's social experimentation vehicle of change.
African-Americans during World War II were greatly discriminated in the USA even though being drafted and serving honorably in the segregated Tusgeegee Airman squadron and many other units, until they proved themselves, sometimes above and beyond their counterparts whereby the military became our first institution to fully embrace equality.
World War II took rosie the rivetor from homemaker to factory worker. ( I know not combat, yet). Some of the most notable spies and conspirators in occupied France (occupied by the nazis) were women, many executed. (not yet). Many women in all our wars were front line nurses and doctors, not far from the front lines (getting closer).
Vietnam was essentially an all male draft, the issue of black and white, no longer an issue.
Prior to Iraq I, women were moving from transport aircraft pilots to fighter and bomber pilots. I personally met an Air Force woman A-10 pilot prior to Iraq I.
Iraq I & II had many women combat pilots, USA women are now in combat.
Women have slowly been allowed to billet on aircraft carriers, destroyers and just recently submarines and so on. Will there be instances where they suck at it, absolutely but over time given the proper training and experience I see no difference in many combat occupations for men or women.
Now women in infantry - Snipers I see no difference. Tanks, I believe Israel has women tank commanders, what else is there?
Oh Yeah - the front line foxhole digging grunt. You're right, women suck at that, they might break a fingernail or the latrine doesn't have the proper hand sanitizer, etc. Get over it, today's military is more about intellegence gathering and hi-tech deployment of smart weapons.
On a lighter note, I believe with supercomputers, monitors, etc. the military could build a frontline of women supertroops, that as I have experienced with my wife and other women could be stetegicaly deployed during that certain time of the month, this unit would be totally ruthless and invinceable.
President Clinton via baby steps implemented the great social experiment with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".
President Obama rescinded that and allowed openly Gay to serve in our military, in spite of the USMC's Commandant's vehement disgust and disapproval (as a former Marine I was troubled by his position). That Commandant has rescinded his statements and apologized acknowledging it was and is a non-issue. Another social experiment successful.
Many people fear change - those people must fear every second, minute, hour, day, year of their existence because change is inevetible, change is the constant.
Joe
Thank you Joe. I liked what
Thank you Joe. I liked what you said very much.
Women in combat
Capt. Petronio was very correct in her long-term assessment of women in combat. As a former Marine Infantryman, I know first hand the physical requirements for doing the job and find 99% of women can not handle it, esspecially over the long-term. It is not a slight, but merely physiological reality. Men and women ARE built differently. We each have our strengths and our weaknesses. There are a good many men who cannot handle the rigors of being an infantryman(person?). I must wonder if you were a POG, because only someone not actually doing infantry combat movements and tactics would suggest that women be allowed in combat.
Former 0352
Women in combat
As a former Woman Marine, I strongly disagree with women in combat. Not because of the physical requirements, and not because women could not handle the job. When there are ratios of 100's of men to a few women, there are going to be problems. I experienced these first hand in the early 80's. Everyone knows what I am talking about. There are those men who will be angry, there are those who want to protect, and then there are those who want sex.
correct
tho i believe capt petrino is right that women would have a much higher drop out rate if any make it at all i also believe as a former infantry marine with 2 tours to iraq that you are correct ma'am on your points
Isn't that point moot?
With the repeal of Dont ask Dont tell, you don't have to be among men, as a woman, to be in danger of being sexually assaulted. A female can easily assault you, sexually.
Your argument is self defeating.
Just because we have already done one thing wrong, that doesn't justify going further in the wrong direction. Of course, most of Washington DC acts as if it does.
Possible sociological problems -- the ONLY ones worth discussing
Possible sociological problems are the *ONLY* possible legitimate reasons for barring women from any combat positions.
We should focus the discussion there.
We should consider the effects within the force (as the poster above did):
-- A unit's fighting might be made worse because men feel compelled to protect women more than they protect other men?
-- A unit's fighting might be made worse because of in-fighting due to competition for attention by women?
-- A force's fighting might be made worse if more soldiers need to be trained and cycled in and out due to deployed soldiers becoming pregnant and being no longer fit to fight?
We should consider the impact on enemies:
-- Certain enemies might fight harder to avoid losing to women and the deep shame associated with that in their cultures?
-- Certain enemies might fight harder because they feel that the way our women act (or the way we "allow" them to act) is another thing that makes us "wrong" and worth fighting?
We should consider the impact on larger society):
-- Society will become less tolerant of armed conflict if more casualties are women?
Let's get the physical strength arguments out of the way right now though:
1. "Men are stronger than women."
NO. ...or at least BE MORE SPECIFIC. Men are stronger than women on average, but it is *NOT* the case that every man is stronger than every woman. Since there is OVERLAP (and there is a very large overlap), it does not make sense to bar women. If the standards are kept the same for everyone, then barring women in fact *WEAKENS* the force by shrinking the pool of possible applicants. ...and this holds true even if only 1 in 1 000 000 women could meet the standard. It does not matter.
2. "We are OK with discriminating based on height for pilot positions of certain aircraft, and discriminating based on "color-blindness" for pilot positions, so discriminating based on gender should be OK for certain positions."
NO, at least not using gender as a proxy for strength!
If you take your ideal pilot and then change him or her to being very very tall, would that person fit the role? No, since his or her legs might be shorn off upon ejecting.
If you take your ideal pilot and then change him or her to being "color-blind", would that person fit the role? No, since his or her failure to be able to see certain things could cause problems.
Now, if you take your ideal Marine infantry soldier---go ahead and assume male---and then change him to being female (but with only that difference, and no difference in strength), would that person fill the role? Yes! On the basis of strength there is nothing to go on.
Again, let's get real and talk about the issues that actually matter.
To get started on the subject of female soldiers becoming pregnant, consider strict enforcement of "no fraternizing" rules, and consider making contraception expected and making people personally accountable (the father and mother, by the way) for the negative effect pregnancy in theater has on the force.
To get started on the subject of male soldiers being overprotective of female soldiers in battle, consider masking the identities of soldiers (face masks, voice altering sound systems) while fighting, and consider forming all-female units.
Did you even read the article?
I can't believe you read the captain's article! She testified personally and recited facts proving significant strength/endurance variations between very fit females and males.
Until you gain the role you appear to covet--God--humble yourself before the facts. Reality is an anvil that wears out dozens of ideological hammers. Females in infantry long-term (no question about their effectiveness in a given firefight or so) weakens that force, period.
Panetta and his Big O boss are moral and factual nitwits.
No
"To get started on the subject of female soldiers becoming pregnant, consider strict enforcement of "no fraternizing" rules, and consider making contraception expected and making people personally accountable (the father and mother, by the way) for the negative effect pregnancy in theater has on the force."
This is like saying strict gun control will stop crime. I served for 26 years and saw my share of pregnancies with strict fraternizing rules. The result of stupidly putting a bunch of young, well conditioned people of both sexes right smack in the middle of their "breeding years" together? Destroyed careers/marriages and leaders grappling for replacements for months at a time. Stop fighting biology, you can curb it for a time but nature always wins out.
Not a great idea
I worked guard rail and we had one female work with us for a week. She was just out of the army and she could not handle the same work load as the guys. When it was 110 out the temp on grade is about 125. She couldn't wear her PPE all day in the heat and let alone lift and hold heavy sections of rail for 10 to 12 hours at a time. She tried hard but just ended up hurting her self.
It came to the point she was put on flag duty cause she just couldn't handle the work load. She found her way into keeping the books some how.
*Possible sociological problems*
Your last statements are ridiculous!. Strict "No fraternizing" ridiculous explain how you would enforce that. Masking the identities of soldiers via face masks, voice altering sound systems. This isn't a video game, be realistic... I doubt with those comments you ever served
" 1. "Men are stronger than
"
1. "Men are stronger than women."
NO. ...or at least BE MORE SPECIFIC. Men are stronger than women on average, but it is *NOT* the case that every man is stronger than every woman. Since there is OVERLAP (and there is a very large overlap), it does not make sense to bar women. If the standards are kept the same for everyone, then barring women in fact *WEAKENS* the force by shrinking the pool of possible applicants. ...and this holds true even if only 1 in 1 000 000 women could meet the standard. It does not matter. "
The military's not barring women. The argument is to stick with the traditional not allowing women in combat roles, or vise.
Being an active duty servicemember, my point is, since when did this become a problem and why now, not when the policy was first made. What was so drastic from then to now. Lastly, as the Captain stated obviously, it would make more sense to allow active duty/reservist infantry oriented women to speak on this, and not an outsider looking in forcing your decision upon others.
all of it
i am 14 years old and im a girl and i know men and wemon r made equally. And wemon can handle physical training, they r allowed to go into combat, and i know, when im a marne im gonna do freakin well at being one. im gonna prove all of u people that disadree with this comment wrong.
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It won't matter..
She's going to fail the ASVAB anyway, so the physical part won't matter for her.
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You've got to be kidding me
Lets lay this out first... I'm super proud of the 14 year old to decide she's gonna join the service... At that age I had no clue what I was going to do in the future... Secondly, as a 1LT female pilot in the army I wholeheartedly disagree with most of these comments. At this day and age the human body is adapting to various rigors necessary to live. The "hunter" mentality no longer just belongs to the male, actually if you look at it, many men are the gatherers in the relationship. I fully feel that if the woman can make the standards not based on her gender, but on what is required for everyone, then she should be allowed to lead from the front.
And single parent homes? Many moms are working mothers, as well as fathers. Just because she decides to join the army doesnt mean it's going to be a single parent home. Joining the military doesn't condemn you to that and even if she was support she would have to deploy so your point is nonsense.
I don't think the front line is for everyone but I do believe there are women out there that can do it. The physical rigors of it will affect everyone, not just women. Combat arms professions take a toll on the body and aren't biased on gender. So yes, if you decide to go combat arms you will most likely come out handicapped in some way (be it a basic knee injury to unable to walk) pending on your circumstances. Women are not weaker due to their capability to sustain from injuries. No matter what you do for a living, if it is physically rigorous then it will take a toll on your body and this is no different. Don't say women can't just because you might think its too hard....
"though she be but little, she is fierce" -Shakespeare
Sorry Louie, but aviation is
Sorry Louie, but aviation is not the infantry.
You got it wrong
So you admit that you sat in a seat and flew an air conditioned and heated aircraft. That does take some talent. I do not know if I could fly one of those things. It sure would be more comfortable than my career choice. But, as a former Army Infantry and Special Forces LTC, I doubt if you could kill a man face to face. I know as I and my men have, sadly, done that hundreds of times. You could not carry me to safety if I was wounded. Yet I could easily carry you. You could not carry a hundred pound ruck and weapons in mountainous terrain, yet my MEN could, day after day. You could not go hunting for our nation's enemies, enduring great physical punishment, in all weather, for weeks. My men can. Let's not experiment. Men will die if women cannot perform at the same standard.
Bravo
Well said sir.
Well said sir
"Men will die if women cannot perform at the same standard". That says it all.
Exactly
I agree, well said.
You got it wrong!
And as usual our strong INFANTRY officers lead us into battle. Sir, you lead by example yet again. Its because of great leaders like you, we may not all come home but we still trust you made every effort to keep us safe. Salutes to the Sir.
You got it wrong
So you admit that you sat in a seat and flew an air conditioned and heated aircraft. That does take some talent. I do not know if I could fly one of those things. It sure would be more comfortable than my career choice. But, as a former Army Infantry and Special Forces LTC, I doubt if you could kill a man face to face. I know as I and my men have, sadly, done that hundreds of times. You could not carry me to safety if I was wounded. Yet I could easily carry you. You could not carry a hundred pound ruck and weapons in mountainous terrain, yet my MEN could, day after day. You could not go hunting for our nation's enemies, enduring great physical punishment, in all weather, for weeks. My men can. Let's not experiment. Men will die if women cannot perform at the same standard.
Former Naval Aviation
During Aviation Officer Candidate School (NASP, FL), no man dared utter resentment for the women in the class, but it existed. There was not equality. With their lower PT standards, the women could earn more points in the physical portion of our class rankings for poorer performance. Our class repeated the 5-mile rifle run three times so that one female could avoid being washed out. None of the men wanted to fly with the women, because if we have to eject and one of us breaks a leg upon return to terra firma the odds of surviving evasion are better if the man has to carry the woman and not the other way around. Once women start demanding equal standards in physical training tests throughout DoD, then I'll believe that they want equal rights. Until then, too many like equality when the deck is stacked in their favor. And that isn't equal!
I respect the USMC O3s point about cost versus benefit. The cost to integrate women on board CVNs did not exceed the benefits. It did make people happy though; and I guess that is the real goal, not having a cost-effective warship for the purpose of power projection.
1st lt pilot
I will tell you right now, the marine corps infantry is full of hunters not gatherers. I want to see a woman pick up a man and drag him to safety, and then get him onto the casevac. I am a former marine corps lance, yes terminal lance. I agree with this captain here, women can be good at other things essential for mission completion but not on the front lines where the dying happens.
doesnt surprize me
that this is from someone who has never had to go thru any type of training even remotely related to the infantry field
Women in combat....
All you females that are posting on here think you can go 4 months without a shower. Carry well over 100lbs extra worth of gear through the hottest shit holes, up the steepest mountains every day,every fucking night, Without compromising the mission by "bitching out" and not carrying your share of the load, Go right ahead, but I'm sure there's not that manny women out there that can be a grunt. Only true grunts know.
Never lower standards to accommodate the whole.
We have been doing that with
We have been doing that with children for tens of thousands of years. Does your gear mess itself every few hours; squirm and scream and claw your eyes out if you don't feed it? You want to know true grunt work? Give birth. Where the hell do you think "grunt" originated?
[I'm not arguing for or against the article, I just think when stupid questions like the one above are posited, they deserve an answer of unabashed truth.]
Children do not
weigh 100lbs. Not even close. And don't bring up birthing a child. Actual "Grunt work" doesn't cause your body to emit painkillers to dull your suffering. Childbirth does.
Really?
Really? Thats your argument? You cared for a small child that doesn't weigh more than 50lbs before its 1st 8-10 years of life and this qualifies you to walk through a desert with a 100+lb bag on limited rations, as little if not less sleep than a new parent and in temperatures that go from the extreme of 125 during the day and 50 at night?
mother of 3
Are you really comparing taking care of a child to what a soldier does in war??!?
Really
The word 'grunt', in regards to what the man was referencing, originated in the armed services. A lot of non-combat units or elements refer to infantrymen, Army, or Marine as grunts, being, 'Ground Recon Unit, Non-Trained'.
I have five children
I have five children. Nursed them all, dealt with every kind of mess. I'm a heck of a good mom. My husband admits he could not handle my kids with the patience I have.
That does not mean I'd be qualified to carry a 100-pound ruck and rifle fifteen miles and then sleep in mud for a week or two. My brother did that at his FOB in Afghanistan and more. I COULD NOT DO IT.
I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with underqualified women serving in positions that put my brother, my husband, and my son at risk. Political correctness and dubious equality standards are not worth the death of a single man - or woman.
Motherhood and military service are both honorable, both hard to do well. They require different skill sets. Men can't do all the mom stuff as well as most women, and women can't do the military stuff as well as most men. Women get pregnant. Men do not. Women have hygiene issues that would be problematic out in the field for long periods. Men don't.
Anyway, if this push came from within the service, that would be one thing. But apparently it's being imposed by a bunch of REMF know-nothing civilians. That by itself should be viewed by suspicion. Wisely, a lot of service members of both sexes are doing just that.
You've got to be kidding me
You have disqualified your own opinion based on your MOS. If you have not served in an occupation that required you to be on the ground, in gear, in a kinetic environment at one time or another, then you have absolutely no frame of reference.
I dont think anyone is doubting the strength (physically and mentally) of women. What we are doubting is 1) What the inclusion of women in the infantry do to increase combat effectiveness and 2) If there is no increase in combat effectiveness with inclusion, then why are we having the discussion?
This isnt a sports team, this is the US Marine Corps. Ya know, the people that keep America from becoming Russia, China, N Korea etc.
You're wrong
How dare you rip on this girls spelling. She could improve before even taking the ASVAB. You must live a really sad life to pick on a 14 year old girl. Your parents must be proud.
She's 14, not 4. If she can't
She's 14, not 4. If she can't string 6 words together yet, she's in big, big trouble.
Pass the ASVAB, really?
I took it out of curiousity while serving as an officer recruiter after graduating USNA and waiting for flight school to start. There were actually some pretty challenging mechanical questions that made you think. But seriously, anybody who paid attention and graduated high school could pass the ASVAB, women included.
True
Who's been feeding her that pap?
Obviously she doesn't understand the physiological differences between the genders, and how testosterone works on muscles efficiency.
you got to learn how to spell
you got to learn how to spell first
Sorry
Look at the olympics or any sports or prisons. sorry its just simple biology men and women make two completly different chemicals that make our body's a certain way.
young and naive
im a former infantry marine kiddo and many women have come before you capt petrino is one of them she was strong athletic mentally tough and stable but she realized through her first hand experience that this is just something that should be left to men not because women are weak in many different areas women are stronger then men this just isnt one of them much like sports are seperated so should be the infantry from women
All of it
Your first sentence says it all. I hate to put you down, but as someone who taught fourteen year old girls for decades, what you think now is not necessarily what you'll think at 21 or even 18.
Men and women are created equal only in some ways, mostly of a non-physical nature. Look at athletic teams. No woman plays or has played in MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL or most other athletic competition. Physically we are different and our endurance levels are different.
While my Marine daughter-in-law may outrun my Marine son, there are other physical challenges that he can perform better than she.
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