The Marine Corps Times recently published a handful of articles in regard to opening Infantry Officer Course (IOC) to females and the possibility of integrating women into the infantry community. In mid-April the Commandant directed the “integration” of the first wave of female officers into IOC this summer following completion of The Basic School (TBS). This action may or may not pave the way for female Marines to serve in the infantry as the results remain to be seen. However, before the Marine Corps moves forward with this concept, should we not ask the hard questions and gain opinions of combat-experienced Marines (male and female alike) as to the purpose, the impact, and the gains from such a move? As a combat-experienced Marine officer, and a female, I am here to tell you that we are not all created equal, and attempting to place females in the infantry will not improve the Marine Corps as the Nation’s force-in-readiness or improve our national security.
As a company grade 1302 combat engineer officer with 5 years of active service and two combat deployments, one to Iraq and the other to Afghanistan, I was able to participate in and lead numerous combat operations. In Iraq as the II MEF Director, Lioness Program, I served as a subject matter expert for II MEF, assisting regimental and battalion commanders on ways to integrate female Marines into combat operations. I primarily focused on expanding the mission of the Lioness Program from searching females to engaging local nationals and information gathering, broadening the ways females were being used in a wide variety of combat operations from census patrols to raids. In Afghanistan I deployed as a 1302 and led a combat engineer platoon in direct support of Regimental Combat Team 8, specifically operating out of the Upper Sangin Valley. My platoon operated for months at a time, constructing patrol bases (PBs) in support of 3d Battalion, 5th Marines; 1st Battalion, 5th Marines; 2d Reconnaissance Battalion; and 3d Battalion, 4th Marines. This combat experience, in particular, compelled me to raise concern over the direction and overall reasoning behind opening the 03XX field.
Who is driving this agenda? I am not personally hearing female Marines, enlisted or officer, pounding on the doors of Congress claiming that their inability to serve in the infantry violates their right to equality. Shockingly, this isn’t even a congressional agenda. This issue is being pushed by several groups, one of which is a small committee of civilians appointed by the Secretary of Defense called the Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Service (DACOWITS). Their mission is to advise the Department of Defense (DoD) on recommendations, as well as matters of policy, pertaining to the well-being of women in the Armed Services from recruiting to employment. Members are selected based on their prior military experience or experience with women’s workforce issues. I certainly applaud and appreciate DACOWITS’ mission; however, as it pertains to the issue of women in the infantry, it’s very surprising to see that none of the committee members are on active duty or have any recent combat or relevant operational experience relating to the issue they are attempting to change. I say this because, at the end of the day, it’s the active duty servicemember who will ultimately deal with the results of their initiatives, not those on the outside looking in. As of now, the Marine Corps hasn’t been directed to integrate, but perhaps the Corps is anticipating the inevitable—DoD pressuring the Corps to comply with DACOWITS’ agenda as the Army has already “rogered up” to full integration. Regardless of what the Army decides to do, it’s critical to emphasize that we are not the Army; our operational speed and tempo, along with our overall mission as the Nation’s amphibious force-in-readiness, are fundamentally different than that of our sister Service. By no means is this distinction intended as disrespectful to our incredible Army. My main point is simply to state that the Marine Corps and the Army are different; even if the Army ultimately does fully integrate all military occupational fields, that doesn’t mean the Corps should follow suit.
I understand that there are female servicemembers who have proven themselves to be physically, mentally, and morally capable of leading and executing combat-type operations; as a result, some of these Marines may feel qualified for the chance of taking on the role of 0302. In the end, my main concern is not whether women are capable of conducting combat operations, as we have already proven that we can hold our own in some very difficult combat situations; instead, my main concern is a question of longevity. Can women endure the physical and physiological rigors of sustained combat operations, and are we willing to accept the attrition and medical issues that go along with integration?
As a young lieutenant, I fit the mold of a female who would have had a shot at completing IOC, and I am sure there was a time in my life where I would have volunteered to be an infantryman. I was a star ice hockey player at Bowdoin College, a small elite college in Maine, with a major in government and law. At 5 feet 3 inches I was squatting 200 pounds and benching 145 pounds when I graduated in 2007. I completed Officer Candidates School (OCS) ranked 4 of 52 candidates, graduated 48 of 261 from TBS, and finished second at MOS school. I also repeatedly scored far above average in all female-based physical fitness tests (for example, earning a 292 out of 300 on the Marine physical fitness test). Five years later, I am physically not the woman I once was and my views have greatly changed on the possibility of women having successful long careers while serving in the infantry. I can say from firsthand experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not just emotion, that we haven’t even begun to analyze and comprehend the gender-specific medical issues and overall physical toll continuous combat operations will have on females.
I was a motivated, resilient second lieutenant when I deployed to Iraq for 10 months, traveling across the Marine area of operations (AO) and participating in numerous combat operations. Yet, due to the excessive amount of time I spent in full combat load, I was diagnosed with a severe case of restless leg syndrome. My spine had compressed on nerves in my lower back causing neuropathy which compounded the symptoms of restless leg syndrome. While this injury has certainly not been enjoyable, Iraq was a pleasant experience compared to the experiences I endured during my deployment to Afghanistan. At the beginning of my tour in Helmand Province, I was physically capable of conducting combat operations for weeks at a time, remaining in my gear for days if necessary and averaging 16-hour days of engineering operations in the heart of Sangin, one of the most kinetic and challenging AOs in the country. There were numerous occasions where I was sent to a grid coordinate and told to build a PB from the ground up, serving not only as the mission commander but also the base commander until the occupants (infantry units) arrived 5 days later. In most of these situations, I had a sergeant as my assistant commander, and the remainder of my platoon consisted of young, motivated NCOs. I was the senior Marine making the final decisions on construction concerns, along with 24-hour base defense and leading 30 Marines at any given time. The physical strain of enduring combat operations and the stress of being responsible for the lives and well-being of such a young group in an extremely kinetic environment were compounded by lack of sleep, which ultimately took a physical toll on my body that I couldn’t have foreseen.
By the fifth month into the deployment, I had muscle atrophy in my thighs that was causing me to constantly trip and my legs to buckle with the slightest grade change. My agility during firefights and mobility on and off vehicles and perimeter walls was seriously hindering my response time and overall capability. It was evident that stress and muscular deterioration was affecting everyone regardless of gender; however, the rate of my deterioration was noticeably faster than that of male Marines and further compounded by gender-specific medical conditions. At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.
There is a drastic shortage of historical data on female attrition or medical ailments of women who have executed sustained combat operations. This said, we need only to review the statistics from our entry-level schools to realize that there is a significant difference in the physical longevity between male and female Marines. At OCS the attrition rate for female candidates in 2011 was historically low at 40 percent, while the male candidates attrite at a much lower rate of 16 percent. Of candidates who were dropped from training because they were injured or not physically qualified, females were breaking at a much higher rate than males, 14 percent versus 4 percent. The same trends were seen at TBS in 2011; the attrition rate for females was 13 percent versus 5 percent for males, and 5 percent of females were found not physically qualified compared with 1 percent of males. Further, both of these training venues have physical fitness standards that are easier for females; at IOC there is one standard regardless of gender. The attrition rate for males attending IOC in 2011 was 17 percent. Should female Marines ultimately attend IOC, we can expect significantly higher attrition rates and long-term injuries for women.
There have been many working groups and formal discussions recently addressing what changes would be necessary to the current IOC period of instruction in order to accommodate both genders without producing an underdeveloped or incapable infantry officer. Not once was the word “lower” used, but let’s be honest, “modifying” a standard so that less physically or mentally capable individuals (male or female) can complete a task is called “lowering the standard”! The bottom line is that the enemy doesn’t discriminate, rounds will not slow down, and combat loads don’t get any lighter, regardless of gender or capability. Even more so, the burden of command does not diminish for a male or female; a leader must gain the respect and trust of his/her Marines in combat. Not being able to physically execute to the standards already established at IOC, which have been battle tested and proven, will produce a slower operational speed and tempo resulting in increased time of exposure to enemy forces and a higher risk of combat injury or death. For this reason alone, I would ask everyone to step back and ask themselves, does this integration solely benefit the individual or the Marine Corps as a whole, as every leader’s focus should be on the needs of the institution and the Nation, not the individual?
Which leads one to really wonder, what is the benefit of this potential change? The Marine Corps is not in a shortage of willing and capable young male second lieutenants who would gladly take on the role of infantry officers. In fact we have men fighting to be assigned to the coveted position of 0302. In 2011, 30 percent of graduating TBS lieutenants listed infantry in their top three requested MOSs. Of those 30 percent, only 47 percent were given the MOS. On the other hand, perhaps this integration is an effort to remove the glass ceiling that some observers feel exists for women when it comes to promotions to general officer ranks. Opening combat arms MOSs, particularly the infantry, such observers argue, allows women to gain the necessary exposure of leading Marines in combat, which will then arguably increase the chances for female Marines serving in strategic leadership assignments. As stated above, I have full faith that female Marines can successfully serve in just about every MOS aside from the infantry. Even if a female can meet the short-term physical, mental, and moral leadership requirements of an infantry officer, by the time that she is eligible to serve in a strategic leadership position, at the 20-year mark or beyond, there is a miniscule probability that she’ll be physically capable of serving at all. Again, it becomes a question of longevity.
Despite my personal opinion regarding the incorporation of females into the infantry community, I am not blind to the fact that females play a key role in countering the gender and cultural barriers we are facing at war, and we do have a place in combat operations. As such, a potential change that I do recommend considering strongly for female Marine officers is to designate a new secondary MOS (0305) for a Marine serving as female engagement team (FET) officer in charge (OIC). 0305s would be employed in the same way we employ drill instructors, as we do not need an enduring FET entity but an existing capability able to stand up based on operational requirements. Legitimizing a program that is already operational in the Corps would greatly benefit both the units utilizing FETs and the women who serve as FET OICs. Unfortunately, FET OICs today are not properly screened and trained for this mission. I propose that those being considered for FET OIC be prescreened and trained through a modified IOC with an appropriately adjusted physical expectation. FET OICs need to better understand the infantry culture and mindset and work with their 0302 brethren to incorporate FET assistance during specific phases of operations to properly prepare them to serve as the subject matter experts to a regimental- or battalion-level infantry commander. Through joint OIC training, both 0302s and FET OICs can start to learn how to integrate capabilities and accomplish their mission individually and collectively. This, in my mind, is a much more viable, cost-effective solution, with high reward for the Marine Corps and the Nation, and it will also directly improve the capabilities of FET OICs.
Finally, what are the Marine Corps standards, particularly physical fitness standards, based on—performance and capability or equality? We abide by numerous discriminators, such as height and weight standards. As multiple Marine Corps Gazette articles have highlighted, Marines who can run first-class physical fitness tests and who have superior MOS proficiency are separated from the Service if they do not meet the Marine Corps’ height and weight standards. Further, tall Marines are restricted from flying specific platforms, and color blind Marines are faced with similar restrictions. We recognize differences in mental capabilities of Marines when we administer the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery and use the results to eliminate/open specific fields. These standards are designed to ensure safety, quality, and the opportunity to be placed in a field in which one can sustain and succeed.
Which once again leads me, as a ground combat-experienced female Marine Corps officer, to ask, what are we trying to accomplish by attempting to fully integrate women into the infantry? For those who dictate policy, changing the current restrictions associated with women in the infantry may not seem significant to the way the Marine Corps operates. I vehemently disagree; this potential change will rock the foundation of our Corps for the worse and will weaken what has been since 1775 the world’s most lethal fighting force. In the end, for DACOWITS and any other individual or organization looking to increase opportunities for female Marines, I applaud your efforts and say thank you. However, for the long-term health of our female Marines, the Marine Corps, and U.S. national security, steer clear of the Marine infantry community when calling for more opportunities for females. Let’s embrace our differences to further hone in on the Corps’ success instead of dismantling who we are to achieve a political agenda. Regardless of the outcome, we will be “Semper Fidelis” and remain focused on our mission to protect and defend the United States of America.




The Marine Corps Association & Foundation remembers the past and honors the present. Review the first one hundred years of MCA via historical photos and film clips of the organization that serves the men and women of the Marine Corps. Click 




Comments
Women in Combat is a Disaster
Ok, I went to Airborne School and Air Assault School. Women did too - however, they did not run with the men nor do any physical training with the men. They did not have to do the pull ups and pushups we had to do - why, because none of them would have been able to do it. Get the women out of combat roles entirely.
Womem in Combat
When I see an article as written above and the coments that follow I always think back to WW 2 and the Red Army and their womem in combat. They had fighter pilots that shot down numerous nazis fliers, they had some of the best Snipers in the world, they had regiments of Tankers and Artillery made up and lead exclusively by womem. They also endured the same trials and hardships their male counter parts did. They did have PC back then but that was a different type of PC considering the phrase Political Correctness was coined by Uncle Joe Stalin. Of course what sets the two times apart was that they were fighting for their very survival as a nation and people maybe thats the difference of what todays fighting forces face on the battle field not a matter of national survival but a continous war of attrition lasting for generations. We will just have to wait and see what happens, the decision are not up to the folks in the trenches, it's for better or worse up to the bean counters in the Puzzle Palace in DC.
World War 2
Yes you are correct the issue was way different. By that time the Soviet Union was facing severe personnel shortages, so everyone was drafted. It was as you said the very life of the nation was at stake there was no going back and nothing to lose, they threw everyone at the problem, but you can see from your own examples many of the jobs are snipers, artillery, air force were support roles not front line combat fighting hand-to-hand with a 6 ft tall 200 lb fanatical veteran SS trooper. If the women were in actual combat it was because their positions were overrun or in the case of being trapped in the city there were no other places to go or sad to say there was no one else.
Soviet women in combat
Yes, there were Soviet women in some formations. But, there were not solely infantry--riflemen units consisting only of women. There were snipers, pilots and corpsmen. Look at most of the photos on the Eastern Front. Could you post several with women in combat units? I read and speak both Russian and German. I have been to most of the military museums in Moscow and Saint Petersburg and have not seen any combat infantrywomen.Women can kill and are brave.
By the way, do we want to copy the Soviet Union? I sure don't.
Women ARE equal to men, but different
Women and men have equal worth before God and should have equal rights under the law. Women are equal to men when it comes to things like courage, determination, intelligence, etc. They are better than men in many areas, as well. BUT, guess what - the reason women are better in some areas is due to gender differences due to biology. Those same biological differences mean women are not as strong or fast as men.
Out of a group of 100 men, maybe only 10 might mean rigorous standards for combat duty. But out of a group of 100 women, only 1 will meet those same standards and not be able to maintain the stress the way the men will. It makes no sense to NOT take into account valid biological differences. Men have higher testosterone levels than women.
Also, you have to think in terms of group cohesion. I am an engineer by training and am used to working in mostly male groups. As a woman, I have had to prove myself and to do it I have often had to be smarter and tougher than the guys - which is fine. And on engineering teams women and men can work together as a team and do great work. BUT, in battle field conditions - it's a different environment and while I have never served in the military, I could see how having a woman as part of the group might hurt group cohesion. One solution might be to make all-women brigades?
But, anyway, I'm a civilian and one thing I do believe - the assignment of the military is to win wars. Military people who understand their jobs and their mission and who will take responsibility for success or failure should be the ones who make decisions - not civilians who sit and critique in the comfort of their own homes.
Women in combat
Well written article and one that I believe is the truth. Another truth is that the Marine Corps hasn't changed much in the 27 years since I got out. Thank you SgtMaj Hardy USA Ret and a couple others that weren't anonymous!
Ron Eggleston
Women should not be in combat but let them do it anyway
Women cannot hold up to the physical stress of combat over a long period of time. The argument laid forth by the author is succint and well written. I firmly agree women should not be allowed into the infantry.
With that being said it's about time women started doing their share of fighting and dying. No politician is going to be against women and if women's groups are demanding to fight then so be it. I have no problem seeing America's daughters coming home in body bags. I have no problem seeing women broken down mentally by combat. I have no problem seeing women failing.
If we're going to go down this track towards a brick wall then let's take the brakes off and push the throttle forward. Feminists will only learn after failure. They simply refuse to believe women can't do everything a man can do. If they are unwilling to listen to reason then watching women die or suffer debilitating physical ailments is the only cure to stop this nonsense. Women suffering short term is a lesson future feminists need to learn.
Women should not be in combat... (REPLY)
Mr. (another) ANONYMOUS,
How very, very CRASS and UNAMERICAN your words have been written.
U.S. Women can and do contribute to Society and Our/Their Country.
WHY send a message of HATE? Whom are you really so angry with that you seek such a vile confrontation.
"We are EQUAL yet Different." We are not fighting you. I thought "WE", The U.S., were fighting World injustice and genocide; and our Constitutional right to continue our Homeland/Nation's Security.
signed,
Europa
A Tax-Paying, U.S. Born Citizen serving our Nation via Volunteering.
Great job Captain Petronio!
We have been an Army family for several generations, but I have to say I have seldom been prouder of the Corps than when reading Captain Petronio’s article. Articulate, intellectually honest and a massive dose of real world common sense!
Politicians and academics with agendas have no place in this discussion. Even honest and well-meaning civilians can’t properly relate. Send them downrange in full battle rattle for at least six months and I suspect the light will begin to dawn.
The battlefield isn’t the only place you have displayed your courage!
You don't even belong in the Combat Engineers.
What are you doing in the combat engineers to begin with? When you say women can lead combat operations, what kind are you talking about. The kind of of operations that were done in WW1 ,WW2, Korea? Small arms fire every now and then is combat? Does our enemy have heavy artillery, tanks, fighter aircraft strafing you? Do they have ships firing missles or gunfire bombarding you? Will all our future wars be fought against enemies like this? Were there any females killed in afghan operations this year? Not that I am aware of.Insulted? Sorry, but this Isn't the Waffen SS we are fighting. Remember your Marine Corps history there were as many killed in a few days at Tarawa than the the 12 years in Afghanistan.In other words Don't compare apples to oranges. By the way war is a man's business, and if you don't like that opinion maybe your Commander in Chief will eliminate my right to speak freely by executive fiat.
Women who died in Afghanistan
Not an official site but you get the idea. Semper Fi dog
http://www.nooniefortin.com/afghanistan.htm
Killed in Afghanistan or in support of Operation Enduring Freedom:
2002: 3 US Military women, 0 US Civilian women
2003: 1 US Military woman, 0 US Civilian women
2004: 1 US Military woman, 1 US Civilian woman
2005: 3 US Military women, 3 US Civilian women
2006: 3 US Military women, 0 US Civilian women
2007: 2 US Military women, 2 US Civilian women
2008: 1 US Military woman, 1 US Civilian woman
2009: 6 US Military women, 3 US Civilian women
2010: 4 US Military women, 1 US Civilian woman
2011: 12 US Military women, 0 US Civilian women
The Women Seem to Be Missing...
that the author was an athlete, in excellent condition, and tough physically. If she couldn't hack it for the long term, then I would say many other women without her background wouldn't either.
I remember the debate about how women could workout and get to a good level etc. The catch was, was that level equal to a man's and could it be sustained out in the field? I keep finding the answer is no.
Like she said, we are not created equal physically. Get over it or get counseling if this makes you feel inferior.
Women Leaders
The author's candor and thoughtfulness are exactly why the Corp benefits from its female leaders and why we should take their word for it when they say the infantry is not the best place for women.
Women 03s
Why did the Gazette choose such inflamatory words for titling this officer's expression of her experience and her thoughts about it? The issue is not about EQUALITY, and to label this important insight as such is to use color words and concepts to grab readers. Shame on the Gazette!
The Five W's
I admire the Captain for her honest and well-communicated views and experiences. However, I believe the article and the resulting posts fails to answer the most important of the "Five W's" - WHY would the Marine Corps allow women in the infantry?
The mission of the Marine Corps Rifle Squad is "To locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, or repel the enemy assault by fire and close combat." Will adding women to the infantry field increase the ability of the Marine Corps to execute that mission?
If the answer is "no" or "I don't know", then the infantry needs to remain male-only. If the answer is "yes", then the Infantry needs to allow women in (with no change in physical standards/requirements).
BUT THAT IS THE ONLY QUESTION THAT NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED!!! The mission, ladies and gentlemen, is what we as Marines are concerned with and should remain focused on. Not making everyone equal or everything fair.
Thank You and Gender Differences/Society
Thank you for your service to our country. Thank you also for taking the time to write an in-depth article on such an important topic.
With over 20+ years experience at one of our nation's service academies, seeing first hand the "products" of our developmental society, here are some critical aspects to consider:
The pool of physically fit, psychologically, competitively driven men and women is limited. Why? Check our school and community feeder systems. Physical education (PE), structured, motor-learning developed, fitness competitive programs are few and far between in the public arena and most universities have eliminated this as a major, so future PE teachers will not be trained and available. Community based sports programs offer a great "developmental" environment, everyone is a winner, trophies for all, everyone plays, we don't keep score, and no wonder you have a whole group devoid of competitive traits. Therefore our pool for high performing military service comes from families, communities or private schools that still have a mission for promoting excellence regardless of race or gender.
Now move to military, physical performance. There is a gender difference in performance. Running events, 12%, "jumping events ~18%, strength application 30-50%....all have men with greater performances. Military engagements discriminate: the strong, smart-cunning, from the weak/stupid regardless of race/gender. We are presently conducting work on simulated casualty evacuation and the weak can't perform to the tune of 300 seconds. Simple math; unfit people take 5 minutes more in moving a casualty from the battlefield. We cannot lower standards. One standard for all regardless of age, race, gender. The Navy dive program response was right on the mark, one standard for all.
Certainly examining the "rates" of injury both in training and deployment venues for ALL DOD is a foundational pillar hopefully leading to better "prehab" training programs. Military engagements discriminate, so let's set an environment to discriminate, glean and harvest our best people.
The necessary first step..
I think the Capt's article is right on point. What I don't understand is why the necessary first step of making the current Male PFT (a long-standing and proven standard for physical fitness) applicable to female Marines. Before integrating women Marines into the infantry, perhaps we should first even the playing field by having one physical fitness standard. The Army did it by lowering the standard for males. Only the soldiers can tell you if that was for the good. Once a sufficient generation of female Marines prove that gender-norming for PFT standards is a thing of the past, then we can look at IOC integration. Remember, it is simply a fact that men on average have more muscle mass then women. Most male Marines—for whom the PFT has been the standard for several generations—can't cut IOC.
First step?
The Army did not lower the men's standard. There are still two different PT standards.
As a physically fit collegiate athlete
Like the author, I was more able than many women to compete physically in terms of lifting, speed, agility and endurance. Also, like the author, my legs began to give out, my back and neck developed arthritis at 23 yrs old with no "injury." I am not near the physical specimen I was and I do find that my body, once a great example of physical capability, was no longer capable of such physical exertion at the very young age of 26. The fact is that for women who push their bodies to these extremes of physical fitness are throwing off the bioevolutionary advantages we have developed as women. I did not menstrate for 3 years from age 21-24 due to my body fat being so low. This no doubt has hormonal effects other than the physiological cycle. Stress and hormonal changes such as these were developed so that women who were in famine or were too stressed would not become pregnant during times they could not care for a child. Therefore it would follow that putting one's body into a condition reminiscent of famine and deep life-threatening stress would have profound affects on how the body responds. Unlike me, whose bodies are made to function with much lower body fat percentages, women push their bodies out of their ideal limits into self-destructive, physical detioration. Now under less strain...women can be amazing leaders!
In terms of Leadership--
I'd follow this Marine anywhere--she shows amazing virtue in her courageous honesty! Clearly someone who should be respected and heard!
Thank you Captain for your service and courage to tell about an unpopular truth!
As a physically fit collegiate athlete... but
Just because someone is physically fit, doesn't mean they are physically ready. Someone who has played American football will not perform the same as a soccer player or a tennis player who has done that sport all their life.
I regret that at age 23 you developed arthritis. However, I wonder about our Olympic athletes who as 20, 30, and 40 something year olds are still performing at amazing levels. I once even read a story on a 60 or 70 year old nun (I think it was) who runs marathons.
My point is that for every positive anecdote, there is a negative. The main point of this issue is how are FET referred to and whether we will give them full recognition for the infantry job they are doing.
I agree with many of your
I agree with many of your points, but I think it is important to note that marathon runners, while amazing athletes, are not power athletes who are muscled out and capable of lifting great and heavy loads. I dont think it is the strain of physical activity, but the strain of going against what the body was intended to bear. Truly, bearing large amounts of weight on the shoulders, arms and backs is physiologically unnatural for the female body. And yes, that is a generalization, but females do not carry their strength in their upper bodies as a rule. We do not want the marathon running physique in our female Marines. We are talking about women who would have to have elevated testosterone levels to build muscle and strenght. The bottom line is: it takes testosterone to build muscle. Women vary considerably in the amount of natural testosterone in their bodies, but if we need a strong woman who can carry the weight mentioned, she will probably need to have high testosterone. There are a number of harmful physiological effects of high testosterone over time for women. And when hormones change as they are want to do at certain points in age, the strength and muscalature of a women will be changed as well. Ovarian cancer, polycystic ovary syndrome and breast cancer are all INCREASED RISKS in women with high testosterone!
Okay about hormones take 1
The example of a marathon runner was to say that ability does not go away because of age. It was not to say that just because one runs a marathon they are now qualified to be an infantry man. The type of physical training is what makes one’s ability. That and the muscles remember what it does most.
More to the point - hormones. I disagree with the perception that some high level of testosterone is needed. HOWEVER, the answer to this is testing and research. Going out to the field and drawing blood. Going to boot camps and drawing blood. And finding female bodybuilders who are willing to be tested and don’t use steroids. I’m not sure how honest some will be about this.
As to muscles changing with age – this happens with everyone. Metabolism changes. Bones change. And muscle density decreases. But guess what, there are 70 year weight lifters with better muscle tones than 20 year olds. And no, I’m not saying 70 year old grandmoms should be infantry.
Its been proven that
Its been proven that testosterone supports muscle growth and aids in aggression. 2 key parts that aid in the development of a soldier or helps in the perfomance of athletes. So if i am in a combat situation please be sure that I would want high levels of testosterone. And as for the 70 year old that you speak of they probabaly took care of themselves and have a lifestyle were they are active. Until they are objectively tested we don't know what their case is.
But I am confused why you discount hormones-namely testosterone when it is used and abused by athletes at the top tiers of competition to give them a performance edge. I have never heard of an elite athlete banned for high levels of estrogen
Its been proven that... response
No, I'm not discounting hormones or testosterone. What I am questioning is the level needed. I personally do not believe that a 'high' level is needed or a level 'as high' as males is needed.
What is high enough for females? Likewise, when under extreme stress, does the female body increases its own production/ratio of testosterone?
And without field testing, we don't know.
Additionally, it is entirely possible for a woman to build muscles without artificially increasing her testosterone levels - however to do this takes time. More than what a male would need. Which is my point in talking about the hormone/muscle building relationship of men to women.
A woman is just as capable of developing muscles but she will need additional time to come up to the performance level of a man. Naturally, her muscles will never have the bulk of a man, but she really doesn’t need bulk. What she needs is strength.
What is a pull up? It is the ability to lift one’s own weight. A 200 pound man should be able to pull himself up as it is his own body weight. Likewise a 110 pound woman should be able to pull herself up as it is her own body weight. If she can’t, it is not because she is a female. It is because her muscles have not been conditioned and are not used to performing such a task.
It's not all conditioning.
Women's upper body strength is also a function of less muscle mass in their uppeer body. Conditioning doesn't fix this.
Polycystic Ovary Syndrome
The Captain's comment about polycystic ovary syndrome - I'm sorry, but this is not unusual. In fact depending on the size and location, ovarian cysts in general do not interfere with childbirth but the cysts may grow with age. Quite a number of females have them but they normally go undetected and untested until a woman is faced with an infertility issue. If the family had no reason to test for cysts (had children at a young age), she would have no family history.
http://www.pafmj.org/showdetails.php?id=251&t=o
The Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) is the commonest hormonal disturbance to affect women of reproductive age, commonly detected by ultrasound with estimated prevalence of 20–33% in the general population [1].
Okay about hormones take 2
So let us step away from the initial shock of imagining women in the front line – they are already there. And to a soldier being shot at and bombed, I don’t think they really care about the difference between guerrilla warfare and classical warfare. In both you die.
Instead let us ask, “How can this work, so that the mission is achieved and both our men and women return with as little lasting physical damage as possible?”
Would very, very low dosages of hormones help females in the field in order to retain muscles despite the heat and lowered calories? What of the men?
What can or should be done to repair the muscle damage/loss seen from those returning from combat?
How effective would natural food sources be for females?
How much time is needed to build muscle strength for females?
Would female need both increased protein rations and mandatory strength building while in a combat zone to compensate for the lack in their own body chemistry?
How long is the stress recovery for females, both to return to a normal menstrual cycle and overall?
Also for those females seeking later childbirth, perhaps there needs to be a program similar to cancer patients where their eggs can be saved (the technology for this is much improved than 10 years ago). And as over run as the VA is, its databases and tracking mechanisms are well setup to lead a decade long (or two) research effort. An effort by the way that will benefit not just female active/reserve/vet but females across the US. And may serves as an additional recruitment lure.
Without answering these and other questions, we are just scaring ourselves. Perhaps unnecessarily.
where is the money coming from
So now we have to raise taxes so we can provide SPECIAL medical procedures so woman can be grunts. Saving their eggs????!!!!! are you kidding me? are you serious??!!! who is paying for this, why should we pay for this? were is the benefit to the tax payer for this woman in infantry and this procedure. You typical liberal, you just want to tax you way to your ideology.
Cost of Fertility Treatments
Not every medical treatment results in a rising of taxes. Already TRICARE provides services for fertility for both men and women; usually diagnostic, but in cases of a severely wounded soldier, TRICARE will provide additional treatment. Unfortunately, the VA currently does not but last I heard there is some congressional effort to change that in the Murry bill.
http://www.veterans.senate.gov/press-releases.cfm?action=release.display&release_id=a44ec771-f60e-4725-8b9f-91da2fe07afc
http://www.tricare.mil/mybenefit/jsp/Medical/IsItCovered.do?kw=Infertility+Treatment&topic=Women
But I agree saving one’s eggs is a costly exercise involving not just the cost of drugs and the procedure to remove but there are also the long term storage costs as well as the cost to fertilize and inseminate. For just storage, the cost ranges from $400-900 per year. For egg removal and drugs costs range from $6,000-14,000. Yes, fertility doctors make a lot of money and the field is currently experiencing high growth due to profit opportunities.
Anyway, to address the cost issues, perhaps supplemental insurance, paid by the soldier, may be provided. As enlisted soldiers generally do not make much, the DoD should negotiate a reduced premium (extending also to military spouses in order to increase the bargaining pool), as it is really the cost of the procedure that is the money drain.
Additionally, as storage costs are less than $1000 a year, the soldier can reasonably be expected to pay for this out of pocket. And if there should be a financial hardship, help is provided (much the same as mechanisms to help soldiers come up with funds for heating oil in times of need). These self contributions are reasonable – as long as inclusion into SOI is voluntary.
If however there is forced admission, then it would also be a reasonable argument that the government now needs to compensate a women if there is a combat bases for her (and not spouse's) infertility. Such compensation could then cost the VA a 10-30% or more rating. However, I am guessing as I do not know the results of claims on this matter.
So why save eggs at all? Well, if the argument to bar females from SOI includes their lost of fertility, then this would be a way to negate that part of the argument while protecting tax payers.
Your nuts
You list special consideration after special consideration to facilitate women in the Infantry. When are you going to get a clue? When does it become too expensive? Are you willing to make all these tpes of special compensations for diabetics or other physically challenged individuals.
It just boggles the mind how the search for equality trumps the mission in some people's minds!
MAJ (Ret) W Rodriguez
As a physically fit collegiate athlete... but
Just for clarification's sake FET's are not doing an Infantry job.
Captain Petronio doesn't seem to understand the military's role
I gotta say, I read up to this point:
"I certainly applaud and appreciate DACOWITS’ mission; however, as it pertains to the issue of women in the infantry, it’s very surprising to see that none of the committee members are on active duty or have any recent combat or relevant operational experience relating to the issue they are attempting to change. I say this because, at the end of the day, it’s the active duty servicemember who will ultimately deal with the results of their initiatives, not those on the outside looking in."
And then I stopped, because I remembered this clip from the West Wing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jWOamlD9_8&feature=player_embedded
The problem, I think, with people in the military complaining that the people overseeing the military don't understand its 'operational realities', is that this argument applies to essentially every civilian oversight decision- from what tanks to buy, to what planes to buy, to where to send those tanks or planes, to where to locate bases or how to write the UCMJ. It ignores one very, very important point: the military does not operate in a vacuum. As much as it might wish it otherwise, civilian oversight- political oversight- is both a key function of democratic governance and a historical reality for the armed services.
This statement:
"Let’s embrace our differences to further hone in on the Corps’ success instead of dismantling who we are to achieve a political agenda."
could have been made about any change to the Marine Corps- or for that matter, any change to any armed service. It would be just as hollow. The Marines exist to serve a political agenda. They have no other purpose. That is what the military is for.
To claim that there is some independent existence of the armed services beyond obedience to civilian oversight, and beyond the implementation of that civilian political agenda is both dangerous and entirely out of touch with what the Marine Corps is. The military, quite frankly, has had to be pushed kicking and screaming into a whole bunch of things- like allowing gay servicemembers- and its cries that 'this time, honest, it'll destroy the military as a fighting force!' ring incredibly hollow. That trust has already been destroyed.
Military Role
"The Marines exist to serve a political agenda. They have no other purpose. That is what the military is for."
Thank you. This needs to be remembered by all. Instead of crying about how this can't work or the old vets nodding, "this was never an issue back when I was in," we need to remember who we serve.
Rather than bellyaching, we really should be saying, "How can we make this work?"
Marines: "Semper Fi, Do or Die"
Nonsense
So just do it is your answer regardless of the massive downside. The reduction in military efficiency is measured in lives lost in combat but at least the eulogy can praise the equality of the failed unit....
There was a time...
There was a time the CIC wanted to shutter the Marine Corps. All decisions aren't right and we can still disagree. There are constitutional options to counter extreme stupidity.
"could have been made about
"could have been made about any change to the Marine Corps- or for that matter, any change to any armed service. It would be just as hollow. The Marines exist to serve a political agenda. They have no other purpose. That is what the military is for."
Yes. and it was once simply to "win wars as efficiently as possible".
Apparently we have now moved on from that, and the servicemen will bear the cost, not the politicos.
War is politics
Winning wars as efficiently as possible is itself a political agenda. The military is the 'big stick' of foreign policy, but it is a policy tool. It does not exist for any intrinsic reason, but to execute some policy (a political agenda).
The military has always borne the brunt in lives of politics, because that's what it's there for. There are, undoubtedly, military operations in the past that could have been avoided at the cost of some policy- America could have refused to interferene against Nazi Germany, say, or in Vietnam or Korea or Iraq or Afghanistan, but it chose not to for political reasons.
The choice whether to buy stealth bombers or deterrent submarines, the choice whether to buy more F-22s or to emplace NMD sites- ultimately, nobody with any sense is under the illusions that those are decisions made for some intrinsic military reason.
Foreign Policy not Social Engineering
The DoD exists to enforce policy in foreign relations, not to be a captive population for whatever scheme is concocted by social engineers. To imply that we just say 'Yes' and do not raise concerns and issues with an agenda is poor leadership. The road to hell is paved with 'Yes' men and women. Being subservient to civilian leadership doesn't mean we stop thinking. If the order is given, then we have to adjust; prior to that it is our duty to vet potential policy thoroughly.
The issues with race and sexual orientation are not equivalent to the debate about females in the infantry. The issue with women in the infantry is surrounded by mountains of scientific facts, whereas the debate about race and sexual orientation was composed of attitudes and emotions. A gay man is still a man and capable of performing equally compared with straight men. He doesn't need special time to train up to meet the standard.
Allowing women in the infantry just does not make sense from all points of view except the ideological viewpoint. The average man will always outperform the average women in the infantry. The exception should never be the rule, and that is what is being proposed.
Cpl Behnke, 0351
WinAF
Agreed...
I agree...to a point
I agree with almost all of what the author says about women in infantry.
There are three types of body makeup. The endomorph, the ectomorph and the mesomorph. A mesomorph woman is natually more muscular and her body type is a lot sturdier than it looks.(I used to beat my endomorph husband in arm wrestling on a regular basis. )However, if a woman really wants to do this, AND can pass all the physical requirements, she should be allowed to try.
But, we shouldn't ENCOURAGE integrating women into the infantry, just to be politically correct.
Get Over It!... (article REPLY)
Capt Petronio, your article and your personal, medical issues are very troubling. I would truly hate to see anyone (male/female) endure what you have been though.
The point you bring up is something that could end the equality we females seek yet at the same time I personally could never pass any entry test or field demands your job requires.
Hence, I suppose my worry is that we (females) will lose opportunities in Service or in the Private Sector for making a vivid "line in the sand". “Should we denounce our abilities altogether?” Many will see our physical differences from males as something other than the black-and-white body make up which there clearly is... just usually a height and muscle ratio issue.
As far as Secret Ops, clearly females have the ability (and often better chance) to blend in and not be considered a hostile threat. In Martial Arts, females have many advantages. Consider even, Wing Chun was created by a female. With Martial Arts and Fighting, females have a lower center of gravity, quicker reaction time, and greater sense of their opponents force.
In general, females' usually have a much more acute sense of smell and things along that line.
Yes, to the male readers, you have a very long list of attributes we cannot contend with. My point is simply to not rule out females in The Armed Services or other Government/Private Security.
So, "I would like to be treated as Equal yet Different". Everyone has their strong points, as well as areas where they lack.
Thank you for your Article. I hope everyone in Our U.S. Government, Armed Service Board, and Non-Serving American Voters consider all the numerous facts and not just crazy opinions for temporary Political Gain.
signed,
Europa
U.S. Voter and Government Volunteer (working in Our National Forests)
Earned My Respect
I congratulate you Captain on a well researched and written argument. It has definitely given me something to think about.
As a former Army Armor officer, and current MACOM staff monkey, I have had the chance to lead, serve with, and be led by women over the last 18 years. Your article brought several of them to mind from both ends of the quality spectrum. When we were younger, I have no doubt that one in particular could have not only served, but excelled in the Army infantry - given a fair chance. Today, she is not the same troop as so long ago...but neither am I and neither are the dozens of physically broken infantry officers I work with on a daily basis.
So I have to respectfully disagree with you and say "let them serve". As long as no quotas are set and only the most motivated and physically able (just like the men) are selected then our nation should be ok. The system does a fair job of attriting those that can't maintain the standards - let it work.
Active Duty Army LTC
Armor qualified to talk about Infantry...really?
Sir,
With respect, as an Armor officer you are as qualified to talk about women in the Infantry as I am to tell you how to run Table VIII and Table XII for an Armor company.
Staff work has even less relevance to Infantry operations.
v/r,
Hostile 7
Armor and Infantry
No. How in 18 years did you work with women as an armor officer? Armor is not open to women. How are you qualified to determine who would make a good infantry officer?
The system is VERY slow in correcting itself. It takes a GENERAL officer to authorize a letter of reprimand to remain in an officer's file. NO ONE goes to a general until someone dies or comes too darn close.
We owe it to our troops to provide them the BEST leadership not what's adequate.
MAJ (Infantry)
Women in the infantry
Canadian army here. I'd like to welcome the U.S. military to the 1990's.
Equality of -opportunity- does not mean equality of -results-. For the most part the problem with women joining the combat arms and infantry is not women in the combat arms and infantry, it's the men. We went through the process of allowing gays and women and making religious accomodations 20 years ago. Now just about any soldier has no problem serving with anyone who can do the job. Period. In a generation the U.S. army will wonder what the big deal was. Excluding 50% of the potential applicants for a job makes no sense. Particularly one with such difficult criteria to meet.
http://www.cjls.com/news.php?ID=2437
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2006/05/17/afghanistan-cda.html
http://knowledge.ca/program/sisters-in-arms
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2009/04/13/afghan.html
http://www.minotdailynews.com/page/content.detail/id/539016/Two-nations-...
http://www.halifaxnewsnet.ca/Blog-Article/b/8144/Gunners-unhappy-with-th...
Yeah...sure...
What I have heard from friends in the PPCLI about the effectiveness of their female infantry in Afghanistan varies somewhat dramatically from the accounts in your media links, by about 180 degrees.
They have been told to shut up about the issues, as they are not consonant with the official party line. Individuals protesting too loudly were warned of the likely consequences to their career.
That sounds eerily familiar.
Women in the infantry
6 links and only ONE about a female in the Infantry.
It took you guys 20 years to figure that out?
From a 22-year vet Soldier/Marine
And I start off by quoting Pvt Hudson in the movie Aliens, "Let's put her in charge!", referring to a young-girl that was able to endure an "Alien" attack.
Now for my personal experience part.
I started off my career as an 17-year old Army combat engineer that attended the all-male one-station unit training at Fort LeonardWood with little idea of combat arms and what that MOS entailed. Combat engineers is one of the most back-breaking MOSes (out of five) that I have worked in my career. Physical labor is part of the job with building bailey bridges/pontoons and even when I helped build land navigation courses; carrying land-nav points with concrete bases with three-man teams for two to three clicks was of no enjoyment.
Four years later, I switched over to the Marine Corps and went to PI and understood later on the benefits of having "separate but equal" training. I wish the other services would have remained and followed suit with all of the scandals that are happening (read the Air Force articles lately). This was my first forey into a POG MOS and witnessed the physical differences between women and men; not only in PT.
After finishing my service after the Gulf War, I returned to the Army into another POG MOS and my unit was 40% female and the first time I went to the field with them; we lost the majority to heat casualties and being down due to their monthly menstrual cycle. I ended up working with a small team building our hasty defenses and standing up our GP medium tents. I was flabbergasted.
Fast forward to the Iraq War where I am a MP squad leader and none of the females could handle a .50 cal or conduct a battledrill 6 with the MK 19. Men always had to pick up the slack. And the majorities of our patrols were mounted and when we took small arms fire; who was crying over the radio to return to base? The sole female SGT team leader. No Leigh Ann Hesters in any of my MP platoons. Leadership thought it was best to keep them all doing detainee ops instead.
Now, I been to Afghanistan twice and constantly seeing the drama with young female soldiers and many who have deliberately remained on rear detachment for timing their pregnancies with a tentative deployment rotation and this is fact!
I am old school military so I am against these liberal left-wing lobbying groups changing the template of our 21st Century military with a Democratic congress repealing laws and softening our military. To be honest; at times, I thought the writer was writing an award citation. She is not infantry and the creation of any 03 mos that aligns with a female will demoralize the Corps.
People, do you think we are only going to engage in these non-contiguous battlefields with guerilla tactics for the rest of our future conflicts? Will FET teams be required in a conventional war with Korea? Once we engage in battles similar to Hamburger Hill and Iwo Jima and body bags starting filling up with women and more men due to them being a liability will make these people immediately retract from their positions.
Discrimination will always be a part of our military institution. I could not go to West Point in my 30s plus there are other stringent requirements. I could not fly due to my age and couldnt become a Lieutenant because of the age requirements changing back and forth. I could not go Special Forces because I have to run in the 17-21 Male group category. I want to see a soldier get a 300 or more in that category. I do agreed with military integration of the late 40s and the dissolving of the WAC and WAVE Corps of the 70s.
But these other recent changes of years; has nothing to do with equal rights but of political agenda. It is obvious these changes are for votes then a legitimate cause.
Signed Chief
From a combat Soldier and former Marine
And I start off by quoting Pvt Hudson in the movie Aliens, "Let's put her in charge!", referring to a young-girl that was able to endure an "Alien" attack.
Now for my personal experience part.
I started off my career as an 17-year old Army combat engineer that attended the all-male one-station unit training at Fort LeonardWood with little idea of combat arms and what that MOS entailed. Combat engineers is one of the most back-breaking MOSes (out of five) that I have worked in my career. Physical labor is part of the job with building bailey bridges/pontoons and even when I helped build land navigation courses; carrying land-nav points with concrete bases with three-man teams for two to three clicks was of no enjoyment.
Four years later, I switched over to the Marine Corps and went to PI and understood later on the benefits of having "separate but equal" training. I wish the other services would have remained and followed suit with all of the scandals that are happening (read the Air Force articles lately). This was my first forey into a POG MOS and witnessed the physical differences between women and men; not only in PT.
After finishing my service after the Gulf War, I returned to the Army into another POG MOS and my unit was 40% female and the first time I went to the field with them; we lost the majority to heat casualties and being down due to their monthly menstrual cycle. I ended up working with a small team building our hasty defenses and standing up our GP medium tents. I was flabbergasted.
Fast forward to the Iraq War where I am a MP squad leader and none of the females could handle a .50 cal or conduct a battledrill 6 with the MK 19. Men always had to pick up the slack. And the majorities of our patrols were mounted and when we took small arms fire; who was crying over the radio to return to base? The sole female SGT team leader. No Leigh Ann Hesters in any of my MP platoons. Leadership thought it was best to keep them all doing detainee ops instead.
Now, I been to Afghanistan twice and constantly seeing the drama with young female soldiers and many who have deliberately remained on rear detachment for timing their pregnancies with a tentative deployment rotation and this is fact!
I am old school military so I am against these liberal left-wing lobbying groups changing the template of our 21st Century military with a Democratic congress repealing laws and softening our military. To be honest; at times, I thought the writer was writing an award citation. She is not infantry and the creation of any 03 mos that aligns with a female will demoralize the Corps.
People, do you think we are only going to engage in these non-contiguous battlefields with guerilla tactics for the rest of our future conflicts? Will FET teams be required in a conventional war with Korea? Once we engage in battles similar to Hamburger Hill and Iwo Jima and body bags starting filling up with women and more men due to them being a liability will make these people immediately retract from their positions.
Discrimination will always be a part of our military institution. I could not go to West Point in my 30s plus there are other stringent requirements. I could not fly due to my age and couldnt become a Lieutenant because of the age requirements changing back and forth. I could not go Special Forces because I have to run in the 17-21 Male group category. I want to see a soldier get a 300 or more in that category. I do agreed with military integration of the late 40s and the dissolving of the WAC and WAVE Corps of the 70s.
But these other recent changes of years; has nothing to do with equal rights but of political agenda. It is obvious these changes are for votes then a legitimate cause.
Signed Chief
Post new comment