The Marine Corps Times recently published a handful of articles in regard to opening Infantry Officer Course (IOC) to females and the possibility of integrating women into the infantry community. In mid-April the Commandant directed the “integration” of the first wave of female officers into IOC this summer following completion of The Basic School (TBS). This action may or may not pave the way for female Marines to serve in the infantry as the results remain to be seen. However, before the Marine Corps moves forward with this concept, should we not ask the hard questions and gain opinions of combat-experienced Marines (male and female alike) as to the purpose, the impact, and the gains from such a move? As a combat-experienced Marine officer, and a female, I am here to tell you that we are not all created equal, and attempting to place females in the infantry will not improve the Marine Corps as the Nation’s force-in-readiness or improve our national security.
As a company grade 1302 combat engineer officer with 5 years of active service and two combat deployments, one to Iraq and the other to Afghanistan, I was able to participate in and lead numerous combat operations. In Iraq as the II MEF Director, Lioness Program, I served as a subject matter expert for II MEF, assisting regimental and battalion commanders on ways to integrate female Marines into combat operations. I primarily focused on expanding the mission of the Lioness Program from searching females to engaging local nationals and information gathering, broadening the ways females were being used in a wide variety of combat operations from census patrols to raids. In Afghanistan I deployed as a 1302 and led a combat engineer platoon in direct support of Regimental Combat Team 8, specifically operating out of the Upper Sangin Valley. My platoon operated for months at a time, constructing patrol bases (PBs) in support of 3d Battalion, 5th Marines; 1st Battalion, 5th Marines; 2d Reconnaissance Battalion; and 3d Battalion, 4th Marines. This combat experience, in particular, compelled me to raise concern over the direction and overall reasoning behind opening the 03XX field.
Who is driving this agenda? I am not personally hearing female Marines, enlisted or officer, pounding on the doors of Congress claiming that their inability to serve in the infantry violates their right to equality. Shockingly, this isn’t even a congressional agenda. This issue is being pushed by several groups, one of which is a small committee of civilians appointed by the Secretary of Defense called the Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Service (DACOWITS). Their mission is to advise the Department of Defense (DoD) on recommendations, as well as matters of policy, pertaining to the well-being of women in the Armed Services from recruiting to employment. Members are selected based on their prior military experience or experience with women’s workforce issues. I certainly applaud and appreciate DACOWITS’ mission; however, as it pertains to the issue of women in the infantry, it’s very surprising to see that none of the committee members are on active duty or have any recent combat or relevant operational experience relating to the issue they are attempting to change. I say this because, at the end of the day, it’s the active duty servicemember who will ultimately deal with the results of their initiatives, not those on the outside looking in. As of now, the Marine Corps hasn’t been directed to integrate, but perhaps the Corps is anticipating the inevitable—DoD pressuring the Corps to comply with DACOWITS’ agenda as the Army has already “rogered up” to full integration. Regardless of what the Army decides to do, it’s critical to emphasize that we are not the Army; our operational speed and tempo, along with our overall mission as the Nation’s amphibious force-in-readiness, are fundamentally different than that of our sister Service. By no means is this distinction intended as disrespectful to our incredible Army. My main point is simply to state that the Marine Corps and the Army are different; even if the Army ultimately does fully integrate all military occupational fields, that doesn’t mean the Corps should follow suit.
I understand that there are female servicemembers who have proven themselves to be physically, mentally, and morally capable of leading and executing combat-type operations; as a result, some of these Marines may feel qualified for the chance of taking on the role of 0302. In the end, my main concern is not whether women are capable of conducting combat operations, as we have already proven that we can hold our own in some very difficult combat situations; instead, my main concern is a question of longevity. Can women endure the physical and physiological rigors of sustained combat operations, and are we willing to accept the attrition and medical issues that go along with integration?
As a young lieutenant, I fit the mold of a female who would have had a shot at completing IOC, and I am sure there was a time in my life where I would have volunteered to be an infantryman. I was a star ice hockey player at Bowdoin College, a small elite college in Maine, with a major in government and law. At 5 feet 3 inches I was squatting 200 pounds and benching 145 pounds when I graduated in 2007. I completed Officer Candidates School (OCS) ranked 4 of 52 candidates, graduated 48 of 261 from TBS, and finished second at MOS school. I also repeatedly scored far above average in all female-based physical fitness tests (for example, earning a 292 out of 300 on the Marine physical fitness test). Five years later, I am physically not the woman I once was and my views have greatly changed on the possibility of women having successful long careers while serving in the infantry. I can say from firsthand experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not just emotion, that we haven’t even begun to analyze and comprehend the gender-specific medical issues and overall physical toll continuous combat operations will have on females.
I was a motivated, resilient second lieutenant when I deployed to Iraq for 10 months, traveling across the Marine area of operations (AO) and participating in numerous combat operations. Yet, due to the excessive amount of time I spent in full combat load, I was diagnosed with a severe case of restless leg syndrome. My spine had compressed on nerves in my lower back causing neuropathy which compounded the symptoms of restless leg syndrome. While this injury has certainly not been enjoyable, Iraq was a pleasant experience compared to the experiences I endured during my deployment to Afghanistan. At the beginning of my tour in Helmand Province, I was physically capable of conducting combat operations for weeks at a time, remaining in my gear for days if necessary and averaging 16-hour days of engineering operations in the heart of Sangin, one of the most kinetic and challenging AOs in the country. There were numerous occasions where I was sent to a grid coordinate and told to build a PB from the ground up, serving not only as the mission commander but also the base commander until the occupants (infantry units) arrived 5 days later. In most of these situations, I had a sergeant as my assistant commander, and the remainder of my platoon consisted of young, motivated NCOs. I was the senior Marine making the final decisions on construction concerns, along with 24-hour base defense and leading 30 Marines at any given time. The physical strain of enduring combat operations and the stress of being responsible for the lives and well-being of such a young group in an extremely kinetic environment were compounded by lack of sleep, which ultimately took a physical toll on my body that I couldn’t have foreseen.
By the fifth month into the deployment, I had muscle atrophy in my thighs that was causing me to constantly trip and my legs to buckle with the slightest grade change. My agility during firefights and mobility on and off vehicles and perimeter walls was seriously hindering my response time and overall capability. It was evident that stress and muscular deterioration was affecting everyone regardless of gender; however, the rate of my deterioration was noticeably faster than that of male Marines and further compounded by gender-specific medical conditions. At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.
There is a drastic shortage of historical data on female attrition or medical ailments of women who have executed sustained combat operations. This said, we need only to review the statistics from our entry-level schools to realize that there is a significant difference in the physical longevity between male and female Marines. At OCS the attrition rate for female candidates in 2011 was historically low at 40 percent, while the male candidates attrite at a much lower rate of 16 percent. Of candidates who were dropped from training because they were injured or not physically qualified, females were breaking at a much higher rate than males, 14 percent versus 4 percent. The same trends were seen at TBS in 2011; the attrition rate for females was 13 percent versus 5 percent for males, and 5 percent of females were found not physically qualified compared with 1 percent of males. Further, both of these training venues have physical fitness standards that are easier for females; at IOC there is one standard regardless of gender. The attrition rate for males attending IOC in 2011 was 17 percent. Should female Marines ultimately attend IOC, we can expect significantly higher attrition rates and long-term injuries for women.
There have been many working groups and formal discussions recently addressing what changes would be necessary to the current IOC period of instruction in order to accommodate both genders without producing an underdeveloped or incapable infantry officer. Not once was the word “lower” used, but let’s be honest, “modifying” a standard so that less physically or mentally capable individuals (male or female) can complete a task is called “lowering the standard”! The bottom line is that the enemy doesn’t discriminate, rounds will not slow down, and combat loads don’t get any lighter, regardless of gender or capability. Even more so, the burden of command does not diminish for a male or female; a leader must gain the respect and trust of his/her Marines in combat. Not being able to physically execute to the standards already established at IOC, which have been battle tested and proven, will produce a slower operational speed and tempo resulting in increased time of exposure to enemy forces and a higher risk of combat injury or death. For this reason alone, I would ask everyone to step back and ask themselves, does this integration solely benefit the individual or the Marine Corps as a whole, as every leader’s focus should be on the needs of the institution and the Nation, not the individual?
Which leads one to really wonder, what is the benefit of this potential change? The Marine Corps is not in a shortage of willing and capable young male second lieutenants who would gladly take on the role of infantry officers. In fact we have men fighting to be assigned to the coveted position of 0302. In 2011, 30 percent of graduating TBS lieutenants listed infantry in their top three requested MOSs. Of those 30 percent, only 47 percent were given the MOS. On the other hand, perhaps this integration is an effort to remove the glass ceiling that some observers feel exists for women when it comes to promotions to general officer ranks. Opening combat arms MOSs, particularly the infantry, such observers argue, allows women to gain the necessary exposure of leading Marines in combat, which will then arguably increase the chances for female Marines serving in strategic leadership assignments. As stated above, I have full faith that female Marines can successfully serve in just about every MOS aside from the infantry. Even if a female can meet the short-term physical, mental, and moral leadership requirements of an infantry officer, by the time that she is eligible to serve in a strategic leadership position, at the 20-year mark or beyond, there is a miniscule probability that she’ll be physically capable of serving at all. Again, it becomes a question of longevity.
Despite my personal opinion regarding the incorporation of females into the infantry community, I am not blind to the fact that females play a key role in countering the gender and cultural barriers we are facing at war, and we do have a place in combat operations. As such, a potential change that I do recommend considering strongly for female Marine officers is to designate a new secondary MOS (0305) for a Marine serving as female engagement team (FET) officer in charge (OIC). 0305s would be employed in the same way we employ drill instructors, as we do not need an enduring FET entity but an existing capability able to stand up based on operational requirements. Legitimizing a program that is already operational in the Corps would greatly benefit both the units utilizing FETs and the women who serve as FET OICs. Unfortunately, FET OICs today are not properly screened and trained for this mission. I propose that those being considered for FET OIC be prescreened and trained through a modified IOC with an appropriately adjusted physical expectation. FET OICs need to better understand the infantry culture and mindset and work with their 0302 brethren to incorporate FET assistance during specific phases of operations to properly prepare them to serve as the subject matter experts to a regimental- or battalion-level infantry commander. Through joint OIC training, both 0302s and FET OICs can start to learn how to integrate capabilities and accomplish their mission individually and collectively. This, in my mind, is a much more viable, cost-effective solution, with high reward for the Marine Corps and the Nation, and it will also directly improve the capabilities of FET OICs.
Finally, what are the Marine Corps standards, particularly physical fitness standards, based on—performance and capability or equality? We abide by numerous discriminators, such as height and weight standards. As multiple Marine Corps Gazette articles have highlighted, Marines who can run first-class physical fitness tests and who have superior MOS proficiency are separated from the Service if they do not meet the Marine Corps’ height and weight standards. Further, tall Marines are restricted from flying specific platforms, and color blind Marines are faced with similar restrictions. We recognize differences in mental capabilities of Marines when we administer the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery and use the results to eliminate/open specific fields. These standards are designed to ensure safety, quality, and the opportunity to be placed in a field in which one can sustain and succeed.
Which once again leads me, as a ground combat-experienced female Marine Corps officer, to ask, what are we trying to accomplish by attempting to fully integrate women into the infantry? For those who dictate policy, changing the current restrictions associated with women in the infantry may not seem significant to the way the Marine Corps operates. I vehemently disagree; this potential change will rock the foundation of our Corps for the worse and will weaken what has been since 1775 the world’s most lethal fighting force. In the end, for DACOWITS and any other individual or organization looking to increase opportunities for female Marines, I applaud your efforts and say thank you. However, for the long-term health of our female Marines, the Marine Corps, and U.S. national security, steer clear of the Marine infantry community when calling for more opportunities for females. Let’s embrace our differences to further hone in on the Corps’ success instead of dismantling who we are to achieve a political agenda. Regardless of the outcome, we will be “Semper Fidelis” and remain focused on our mission to protect and defend the United States of America.




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Comments
As a woman I have always felt
As a woman I have always felt it was stupid to lower the standards for women to pass. It SHOULD be identical to what is required of men. How else are we supposed to get the strongest of the strong. I think it's brilliant that your area of the military is showing TRUE equality by requiring the SAME from both genders! I find this brilliant.
Not all tests are administered in the schools
The practical exams are usualy given in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't think it is worth the body bags to find out how many will fail the "test".
And I don't just mean the dead females - it's also the male comrades whom the weak female couldn't pull out of the burning vehicle.
get the facts
we are not short on grunts, we have plenty men grunts so we don't need women grunts. It's not around womens rights or wants is about the needs and wants of the Marine Corps. Adding women won't make things any better so what is the point of adding women?
get the facts
we are not short on grunts, we have plenty men grunts so we don't need women grunts. It's not around womens rights or wants is about the needs and wants of the Marine Corps. Adding women won't make things any better so what is the point of adding women?
Disappointing
When the women leadership in the military take on these sexist views trying to say "all women" fit in to this or that category it is no wonder that we continue to have gender inequality in the military and sexual assault at alarming rates (nearly one in three women who serve). It's not a surprize to me that this woman is an officer, I think it shows incredible arrogance to write an article stating that because she couldn't handle being in the infantry that no other woman could.
Many of these comments disgust me, talking about women getting pregnant or worse...Sir is the worse you are refering to getting raped? If so I think we should think about holding rapist accountable and standing up for our sisters in arms not blaming them for being assaulted. Having a well trained, diverse, cohesive, and professional military would be far better than an out of touch boys club running wild.
The only thing more depressing than the amount of sexism in the military is the fact that women engage in it. Why? Perhaps so they can prove that they are different from the rest of the "weak women" in service. Come on ladies have some self respect and respect for our sisters.
I served from 2001-2006 and deployed 3 times in five years. I believe I could have done anything in the military had the options been open to me. I give this opinion piece two thumbs down and a boooooooo!
Thank you for pointing this
Thank you for pointing this out. When I read this article that is the first thing that came to mind. It I so common to see women turn on each in the military in a false attempt to gain admiration from their male counterparts. It is an ineffective leadership style and demonstrates her inability to cope with her failures. If she truly focused she would realize that her stereotyping of women is a direct result of the injustices she has experienced in her career. I'm not saying to lower the standard but I am saying the opportunity should be provided for those who can serve effectively. Mixed moral or idealogical opinions about the "spirit" or cohesiveness of an infantry unit should not be a factor because as history has demonstrated before discrimination resulted in the barring of some today's most heroic service members who are not the right shade of Caucasian. As a Fleet Marine Force Corpsman I can confidently admit that males suffer the same debilating injuries if not properly physically conditioned or geneticaly/socialy prone.
Did you read the article?
First off she could cut it!!! She was a Captain in the Marines leading a combat engineers platoon. She built bases in Iraq and Afganistan. What service where you in? and what was your MOS? and your deployments? also what was your rank? and what were the school(s) you attended? This woman did "cut" it and much more. So give her respect. As a man I respect her and please (any enlisted or former marine comment) don't the Marines expect more from their officers?
She is not saying to not be there she is saying that some roles women should not be in. Not because of courage or leadership ability, but because its brutal. And women will face the long term consequences worse off then men. Men will not face the inability to have children and that is only 1 of many health risks to specific to women that have not been fully studied combined with the risks of being in combat that have not been fully studied.
Don't get me wrong "limitations" have always been used by racist and bigots to promote their agendas and limit access and resources to the "old boys club". And I understand what this officer is saying. If you can't do a certain job you shouldn't be limited in your career path, and you should be allowed the same opportunities, or you should be given opportunities that you can do that will further to the heights of your talents and ambition AND the Marine Corps...that sounds fair to me.
Please look at this from a non-emotional knee jerk reaction. There are differences, but DIFFERENCES ARE NOT LIMITIATIONS. If I am nearsighted don't have me pilot or land planes, but there should still be a place where I can serve my country and be allowed full expression doing something else. If I am a woman and will face long term severe or permanent disablity quicker than a male peer in combat roles then don't put me in combat, (especially when combat operations are long and multi-year) put me in a role where I CAN serve with distinction and be allowed to attain the limits of my ambition. What is the point if my career will be a fraction of a mans and I am out because of what this female captain faced?
But I will be fair to you- Be my guest is you want to spend 1 year in Afganistan in running fire-fights wearing full gear with an 80 lb pack 16 hours a day walking up and down mountains to make a political point.
Hard
First, thank you for your many deployments and commitment to our Corps. You did not however mention your MOS or PFT scores. I don't know you and have no idea what your size or level of fitness is but in any physical contest if you could best a 190 pound 6'2 man I'd be shocked. Maybe a 5'9 150 pound man - that probably will not happen either. This does not mean you are not smarter than most of your peers or can not make profound contributions to our Corp that exceed the majority but nearly all women are physically weaker than men even of similar height and weight.
I didn't make the world this way but this gender inequity exists in nature even if you refuse to admit it
Sun
I'm disgusted with people like you who blatantly ignore reality to play hero.
This women has the maturity that you have. Looking at the issue objectively regardless of what you are takes integrity.This person understand that the sexes biologcially diverge and you don't. You believe that men having pee pee parts and women having vag part is the only difference. It isn't. Having taking Human Anatomy and Physio I don't need a lecture from you about how men are women are equal.
Having a diverse body doesn't leading to cohesion nor helps in effeciency. This is pretty basic. So thousands of years of wars being fought by men is just "stupid" and (wait for it) "old fashion" because "progressive" people like you have it all figured out? Please.
Ref "Disappointing"
Disappointing that women attack CPT P personally instead of her facts. There's a saying about heat and kitchens...
Political Correctness Is Destroying Our Military!
Pentagon DADT study was biased http://bit.ly/LG3HlC
Rather than asking if our troops were biased against LGBTs in the workplace, they should have asked questions concerning forced intimacy, forced morality and the LGBT medical readiness issues....”
The Homosexual Agenda and the U.S. Military
The Homosexual Agenda and the U.S. Military
Neutralize the Infantry Spirit
I like this quote, "Once again we neutralize our institutions under the holy name of equality." Decisions are being made by people that are not infantrymen and are far removed from the reality of what it means to be an infantryman day in and day out...for years.
a bigger problem - upholding focus & discipline
Wow, great article. I agree that it's not a good idea, but for a different reason. I think some women can physically hack it. I'm afraid it will be tougher to uphold focus, discipline and cohesion during long tours at close quarters. It's not a regular job. Integration emplaces a moral hazard that is unnecessary, causing distractions and temptations for servicemembers and unnecessary strains for the families who support them. Equal but segregated may be a better option. But like the Captain said, I have yet to meet a woman who really wants to be in the Infantry or Special Forces. But some idealists won't let practicality and the reality on the ground get in the way of their ideology and their ideas that were dreamed up in some air-conditioned wine bar in DC.
the bigger problem
Wow, good article. I agree that it's not a good idea, but for a different reason. I think some women can physically hack it. I'm afraid it will be tougher to uphold focus, discipline and cohesion during long tours at close quarters. It's not a regular job. Integration emplaces a moral hazard that is unnecessary, causing distractions and temptations for servicemembers and unnecessary strains for the families who support them. Equal but segregated may be a better option. But like the Captain said, I have yet to meet a woman who really wants to be in the Infantry or Special Forces. But some idealists won't let practicality and the reality on the ground get in the way of their ideology and their ideas that were dreamed up in some air-conditioned wine bar in DC.
This article is well-written,
This article is well-written, and CPT Petronio makes several good points. I disagree with her ultimate conclusion, but I applaud her for her service and her honest and straightforward appraisal of the issues involved.
I am an Army medic, and used to be an Army infantryman. In my initial enlistment, back in the 1980's, I went through Basic and A.I.T. combined - OSUT - at Fort Benning, Georgia. I served in all-male units and rarely interacted with female soldiers. The ones I met came from various backgrounds and had many different jobs, characteristics, and attitudes. A few of them were expert shots and PT "studs" (or whatever the equivalent, gender-correct term would be.) My experience as an infantryman included a six-month stint in Egypt for peacekeeping duty (in the summer!), but did not include combat.
Flash forward to 2004: I'm a 41-year-old civilian paramedic, and I've re-enlisted in the National Guard as a combat medic. Despite my civilian experience I was required to go through the Army's Combat Medic Course - A.I.T. at Fort Sam Houston, in Texas. To say that my second A.I.T. was different from my first one, and to say that I suffered from culture shock, would be vast understatements. There were "girls" everywhere - many of them young enough to be my daughters - and the atmosphere was drastically different. The PT regimen and standards were mere shadows of what I was used to.
I noticed, with some dismay, that the rate of injury among the young female soldiers was fairly high - much higher than that for the male soldiers. Some of the young women damaged their hips, legs, and/or ankles so badly that they had to be discharged; some even became eligible for disability compensation. This mirrors CPT Petronio's recounting of higher attrition rates for feamle Marines in various Marine Corps schools.
I wondered why the Army was "breaking" so many young women, and since then I've asked a lot of questions and read a lot of articles about it. The theory that "women aren't as durable as men" does not fit the available facts. Women actually live longer than men, everywhere in the world. They are not as fast as men, but they are as good (or better) than men at endurance competitions, like triathlons and ultramarathons. They sweat more efficiently. They have a different arrangement of fat in their bodies, and they tolerate cold better. Things change after menopause, but the military doesn't generally recruit women during their peri-menopausal or post-menopausal years.
The biggest difference, as far as I could see, was the level of physical fitness that young women bring with them when they enter the military. Simply put, our nation's teenage women are not getting proper nutrition and adequate exercise, and are too weak and fragile when they sign up. I realize that I'm painting with a very broad brush, here, but I hope that people will consider these factors.
Clearly, CPT Petronio was neither weak nor fragile when she joined the USMC. She relates how her physical condition deteriorated during her two combat tours, though, and from that draws her conclusion that women can't last through multiple deployments. I don't think that she should see her own, unique experience as indicative of a general trend, though. I ache to hear about her various ailments, but I'm not convinced that all women would suffer the same fate. Clearly, there is very limited data available, as she points out; more study is certainly called for.
Something else I'd like to know, too, is how many MEN can withstand multiple deployments. How many male second lieutenants stay in the Corps for more than one hitch? What is the rate for combat arms lieutenants, specifically? How many young infantrymen reclassify into other MOS's before they get out? Women are not indestructible, but neither are men.
Women who can meet the rigorous standards for infantry officers will ALWAYS be a rare few, and those who can keep it up for years on end may be even rarer still. That doesn't mean that such women don't exist, though. The few who can physically hack it - and who have the proper attitude and drive for it - should be allowed to do it.
The military protects democracy, it doesn't practice it
So you would re-jigger the entire Infantry for 5 women? Never mind the integration issues, is that really a good use of taxpayer dollars?
"Re-jigger the entire Infantry..."?
I'm dismayed that somebody has replied to my comment but chosen to remain anonymous. I'll answer anyway.
No, I would not "re-jigger" the enitire infantry for just a few women. (5? There would be more than that, over time.) I would keep the exact same physical, mental, and moral standards for both genders/sexes; I would oppose ANY lowering of those standards. If future classes of infantry officer's courses included men and women, BUT only graduated the ones who met ALL the standards, what, exactly, would have to be re-arranged? Separate bathrooms - where you have the LUXURY of actually having bathrooms - and separate beds... That's about all that would be needed. The training would stay the same; the equipment would stay the same; the missions would stay the same.
I note that people are bringing up the "distraction" issue. Men who are mentally strong and mature enough to lead infantry in combat should be strong enough to handle the "distraction." If a man can't ignore the fact that there's a woman present, how can we trust him to ignore the incoming bullets when he has to call for fire? Or to ignore his own pain or wounds when his soldeirs need him? Successful combat leaders "compartmentalize" their minds and thoughts.
Then there's the issue of sexual harassment. Again, I note that there are moral standards that all soldiers and marines should live up to. Men who commit sexual harassment lack maturity and/or judgment; we don't need them in the infantry anyway, and especially not in leadership positions.
A lot of places now have female firefighters. If a person is strong enough to hump a load of hoses up a couple of flights of steps, wearing bunker gear and SCBA, while the steps are inconveniently on fire, and can then carry MY unconscious self out of the building, then I don't CARE if that person is a man or a woman. As I said before: few women can do it, but those who CAN should be allowed the opportunity.
nothing compares
comparing firefighters to pulling Infantry duty in afghan is like me comparing the stress level of President of my neighborhood watch to President of the United States. Don't compare anything to Infantry measure of facts and and stats to the actual job
I WAS an infantryman -
I WAS an infantryman - specifically, in a "light" infantry division - when I was younger, so I am familiar with the demands of the job. I've walked more miles, carrying more weight, than I care to remember. I've already written that I did not serve as a grunt in combat, BUT... as a combat medic in Iraq I served with two infantry platoons. I went where they went, and I carried as much weight as they did. Granted, I was less weighed down with weapons and ammo, but they weren't weighed down with my aid bag, so it more-or-less evened out.
Anyway... My point is not that I'm something special; I'm not, particularly. My point is that I DO know what I'm talking about. Do you?
As for firefighting: I was COMPARING a firefighter's job to an infantryman's job; I was not saying that they were the same thing. They're not. That said, I think you have a stunning disregard for firefighters and the work that they do. Suit up with them sometime, and go into a burning building or forest, putting your one and only life on the line, depending only on your training and your buddies, and see if the comparison is so ridiculous.
As for me: No, thanks. I'm too old for that sort of thing, now.
But anyway... You missed my point there, too. The point was that if nobody in their right mind cares about the gender of a firefighter when that firefighter is saving your ass, then why should you care about the gender of an infantry soldier if that soldier is saving your ass?
Was an infantryman
Not to belittle your service by any means, but you said you had no combat experience.
FireMAN not Woman
I'm a former Marine and a large city police officer. Been in a couple of house fires and I HAVE NEVER SEEN a FEMALE firefighter. I've seen female paramedics, but NEVER firefighters. Of the fire paramedics, not ONE would have been able to carry me out of a building/house.
Return on Investment?
I believe that men are still faster in endurance events, the gap has been closing however.
Any way you spin it, the average man will outperform the average women in infantry units.
As for allowing the few women capable to try, what is our return on investment? How much will it cost for us to train female Marines to perform as well as the average male Marine in the infantry? What it the cost of the attrition that will be experienced during training? Also, what is the affect to our combat capability? Do our units increase their tempo and capabilities, or is it degraded?
These are the questions that need to be addressed.
Good Article / point of view...
However, I think instead of just automatically granting women these types of jobs they ask for, we should be doing it in baby steps, a progression if you will. The very first step that should be taken before any female is alowed to serve in any combat role is that every female over the age of 18 should be required to register for the Selective Service. If we are truly just looking for equality, lets start there. From that point we can continue the "cause".
Females not having to register = females not equal
My Daughter
And when someone comes to my door attempting to involuntarily drag my daughter off to war, I will defend her with the same vigor I fought the enemy in Iraq.
No you won't. She's the same
No you won't. She's the same as a male (son).
Funny
My daughter is a princess not a warrior. She is brilliant and could be a future POTUS but does not need to be an 03 to satisfy your sick agenda.
Why are America's sons the
Why are America's sons the only ones good enough to die for their country? If you truly want equality for her then she should do her duty just like the men.
45
I hope you are the one who knocks on my door....
We need systematic analysis, not anecdotal hyperbole
"This potential change will rock the foundation of our Corps for the worse and will weaken what has been since 1775 the world's most lethal fighting force." My goodness, such strong words! And only anecdotal evidence to back it up. Her logic is flawed and self-serving. We need systematic, quantitative analysis, not anecdotal hyperbole. Using FET as an example is useless, as those personnel were not properly selected and trained for their mission.
Denying females access to infantry billets does nothing more than to limit the pool of qualified candidates -- and the USMC deserves the very best. Combat arms is at the very heart of the USMC, and the fact that women do not have access to these billets likely reduces the numbers and/or quality of female recruits. For example, if I were an 18 year-old badass gal looking to see some action, I'd enlist in the Navy and go EOD, not join the Corps. Being denied a combat role also impacts promotion and benefits.
While my heart goes out to Capt Petronio for the injuries she has sustained, she is doing her fellow and future Marines no favors by taking anecdotal evidence and applying it broad-brush to such an important issue. Her argument is untenable.
Hyperbole bad
I agree with your comments episodically. While you mock the lack of actual data you provide none in reply. Real data would be nice but the facts here are obvious and have been through the ages. Deny Mother Nature in vein.
DRAWDOWN
You are aware that the Marine Corps is currently in a drawdown, and we already have a vast surplus of qualified applicants for enlisted and officer, right?
We need systematic analysis, not anecdotal hyperbole - ANS
We do and some of it exists it's just never cited by those with an agendas to open the Infantry to women.
1992 report of the Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces. Military sociologist Presidential Commission member Charles Moskos stated: "…most of the evidence that we've heard here–and there will be some debate about the degree–is that mixed-gender units, particularly as it gets closer to the combat area, have lower deployment rates, higher attrition, less physical strength, more sexual activity, higher costs, et cetera, et cetera. It would seem to me the burden of the proof would be on the side of saying equal opportunity is of such significance that we’re going to override some of these costs”
Ministry of Defence (United Kingdom). (2002). Women in the Armed Forces. Report by the Employment of Women in the Armed Forces Steering Group,. “ The overwhelming majority of females applying to the Army or currently serving in the Army would be physically incapable of performing many of the tasks required by the Infantry and RAC [Royal Armoured Corps]. Among the remainder who might achieve the required standards, the risk of injury will be higher than among their male counterparts, as these individuals will be working at a higher percentage of their maximum capability, and their reserve capacity will be less.”
A report prepared by Army Major Merideth Bucher at the Air Command and Staff College of the Air University makes a strong case that pregnancy is a serious problem. Major Bucher reported that women have nearly four times as much lost time as men, mostly because of pregnancy, and she cites a report from the Center for Army Lessons Learned indicating that in some units at the time of the Gulf War, 18 to 20 percent of female soldiers were nondeployable either because of pregnancy or other physical problems. Bucher, 1999.
Studies conducted by psychologist Leora Rosen have similarly found that inclusion of women in army units can reduce cohesion, reporting that “overall patterns indicate a consistent negative relationship” between the percentage of women and unit cohesion. Rosen, L. N., Bliese, P. D., Wright, K. A., & Gifford, R. K. (1999). Gender Composition and Group Cohesion in U.S. Army Units: A Comparison Across Five Studies. Armed Forces & Society, 25:365-386.
The reason you might have a problem finding these can be understood by remembering Sara Lister Assistant Secretary of the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs in the last Clinton administration when she candidly stated that the Army does not publicly discuss strength and pregnancy issues because “those subjects quickly became fodder for conservatives seeking to limit women’s role in the Army.” Richard J. Newman, Army Sex Ed 101: Lessons from Racial Integration Could Ease Gender Wars. U.S. News & World Report, Aug. 11, 1997. Even today the army will not release those numbers and even states it doesn’t keep track of the number of women returned to the States because of pregnancy.
This article and discussion has been much more honest.
That's the point " if I were
That's the point " if I were an 18 year-old badass gal looking to see some action"
That's funny cuz you really don't know what real badass is. We would be appalled if
we let professional female boxers in the ring with professional male boxer. You want females in combat against male soliders. That really makes sense to you? What would be your responds if we eliminate all gender base sports in college and just had a single basketball team or baseball team and let both male and female could compete for a roster spot then I think the differences between males and female might be apparent to you.
A female Army vet's take
From http://tinyurl.com/cv4gmlk
As a woman and veteran, I struggle with the idea of women on the front lines. There is a battle between the pragmatist in me and the idealist. Before I joined the US Army, I was much more able to side with my idealist self. Several weeks of basic training in a co-ed cohort is how my internal conflict started.
I was one of the most physically fit females in my unit - easily in the top 5% of my company, which had 60 women in it. There were the chivalrous men not wanting to see a woman struggle to carry a sandbag, or get over a wall, or that fall behind in a run … which happened more often than not. Actually, it wasn’t that the men felt solely compelled to help us as women, but as soldiers. They didn’t want to leave us behind. We slowed the men down. We did. It was a harsh reality to face and it hurt my idealist heart and mind, but it's the truth.
I thought about what it would be like in the heat of a battle and couldn’t imagine putting my fellow male soldier’s life at risk for my ideals. If we had to carry a wounded soldier much larger than me, I wouldn’t be able to! If we had to build a bunker quickly, I could manage one sandbag for the weakest male soldiers four sandbags. If we would have had to run long distances or go on long patrols I - again, at the top 5% of physical fitness standards in the military for females - would have fallen behind. I struggled to even carry the tripod of a M60 during our practiced road marches, so I could have never carried an actual M60. Thirty pounds of my own equipment was about all I could manage for 12-miles hikes.
I am sure there are women who can do these things, but in my experiences in the military (4.5 years) I can only recall one woman who was up to that standard, and even then she was barely stronger than the weakest of the males soldiers. It’s just biology; men have more muscles in their bodies. It may seem unfair, but physical fitness matters in battle.
There have to be some instances where we say yes, you have to meet a physical standard to do this position. My guess is though, if we force women to pass physical fitness test, the same test men do, very, very, very few will pass. Then the military will be blamed for denying women the opportunity to serve on the front line.
as a wm veteran, I agree with
as a wm veteran, I agree with you.
Thank you
Life male or female is about knowing our limits. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. We can be different but equal.
Superbly written CPT Petronio!
CPT Petronio, kudos to you for a superbly written piece!
Paul Hardy,
Sergeant Major, Ret. US Army
Show me a female that can get
Show me a female that can get a first class PFT using male standards.
Then out of that group ask how many want to be infantry officers.
Then put them through IOC without modifying current training standards.
What are you left with?
enlisted infantry promotions
So a question for those blindly pushing more bad policy. Let's assume for a second the left does what it says it will do but never actually does. Let's say if women qualify by the same PFT and CFT standards they will be allowed I the infantry (because of course your MOS is always your choice). Do these social engineers also believe that all 03 females will have the same average PFT/CFTs as their male counterparts. And when this does not happen and it won't, who actually believes that their will not be a cry from the left about the inevitable bias in promotions.
So is equality or lethality is the greatest virtue you want in your infantry? I already know what the enemy wants but I'm always amazed but those who remain in absolute denial of reality. They dismiss reasonable concerns and sexism without regard to real outcomes. Everyone is not best qualified for every job and that's ok. I don't understand why modern American culture keeps magnifying the differences between race where there should be little and minimizing the difference between gender where it is massive. And a good thing...
enlisted infantry promotions
So a question for those blindly pushing more bad policy. Let's assume for a second the left does what it says it will do but never actually does. Let's say if women qualify by the same PFT and CFT standards they will be allowed I the infantry (because of course your MOS is always your choice). Do these social engineers also believe that all 03 females will have the same average PFT/CFTs as their male counterparts. And when this does not happen and it won't, who actually believes that their will not be a cry from the left about the inevitable bias in promotions.
So is equality or lethality is the greatest virtue you want in your infantry? I already know what the enemy wants but I'm always amazed but those who remain in absolute denial of reality. They dismiss reasonable concerns and sexism without regard to real outcomes. Everyone is not best qualified for every job and that's ok. I don't understand why modern American culture keeps magnifying the differences between race where there should be little and minimizing the difference between gender where it is massive. And a good thing...
enlisted infantry promotions
So a question for those blindly pushing more bad policy. Let's assume for a second the left does what it says it will do but never actually does. Let's say if women qualify by the same PFT and CFT standards they will be allowed I the infantry (because of course your MOS is always your choice). Do these social engineers also believe that all 03 females will have the same average PFT/CFTs as their male counterparts. And when this does not happen and it won't, who actually believes that their will not be a cry from the left about the inevitable bias in promotions.
So is equality or lethality is the greatest virtue you want in your infantry? I already know what the enemy wants but I'm always amazed but those who remain in absolute denial of reality. They dismiss reasonable concerns and sexism without regard to real outcomes. Everyone is not best qualified for every job and that's ok. I don't understand why modern American culture keeps magnifying the differences between race where there should be little and minimizing the difference between gender where it is massive. And a good thing...
Implications for conscription and assignment
The argument that assignment to the infantry should be, for women, based on self selection in order to mitigate potential second order gender bias in subsequent promotions is a blatantly hypocritical. That they alone should be permitted to self select? Of men conscripted in the infantry, during high intensity wars, it was very common of them to think of it as a death sentence. Ignoring all the benefits of serving in the infantry, statistically speaking it’s a very dangerous MOS and especially so during a high intensity conflict where a nation’s survival is at risk, not merely it’s interests. In the context of fairness, logic would dictate that all women would be eligible to be assigned to the infantry during a conscription event. After all, we need to give them the same opportunity to die for their country. Are we comfortable with that?
Ooh Rah
I appreciate the candor with which the article is written and the experience that backs it up. The no-nonsense style has great appeal as well. Bravo.
A Modest Proposal: Reparations Now!
Women and homosexuals have been denied the glories of combat for far too long. Why do heterosexual males get to do all the fighting and dying? It is discrimination no matter how you slice it. The only solution is some form of reparations. A draft should be reinstituted for women and homosexuals. We should fill the ranks of all infantry, artillery, and tank battalions with women and homosexuals. There will be no fraternization issues for obvious reasons. They can focus on the job without distraction. This is the 21st century! Get with the program!
Ah Satire
Well there u have it.
wm veteran
This isn't about the woman having the right to be a grunt but about the rights of the men she will serve with.
also regarding the poster talking about the white elephant in the room:rape. I can only imagine that having a woman on a team would make that particular team more of a target to the enemy. I shouldn't have to spell this out as to why. But we only need look at the female reporters in Egypt who were not in combat and how they were gang raped for just being there. These female reporters were friendly to their cause. Imagine what they will do to a woman captured on the battlefield.
Mistereatment of POWs
If you think women are the only POWs raped, then you're delusional. Having said that, the frequency is of course different. FWIW- Under the stress she'd likely not conveive, so that's a non-issue.
Thank you Captain Petronio
Captain Petronio
Thank you for your service to our nation, and thank you for your thoughtful insights on this issue.
Best wishes for you in all you do
Geoff Milke
Selective service
When our daughters are required to register for selective service, I will support women in the infantry. If we are all equal our daughters shouldn't be considered more equal than our sons.
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