The Marine Corps Times recently published a handful of articles in regard to opening Infantry Officer Course (IOC) to females and the possibility of integrating women into the infantry community. In mid-April the Commandant directed the “integration” of the first wave of female officers into IOC this summer following completion of The Basic School (TBS). This action may or may not pave the way for female Marines to serve in the infantry as the results remain to be seen. However, before the Marine Corps moves forward with this concept, should we not ask the hard questions and gain opinions of combat-experienced Marines (male and female alike) as to the purpose, the impact, and the gains from such a move? As a combat-experienced Marine officer, and a female, I am here to tell you that we are not all created equal, and attempting to place females in the infantry will not improve the Marine Corps as the Nation’s force-in-readiness or improve our national security.
As a company grade 1302 combat engineer officer with 5 years of active service and two combat deployments, one to Iraq and the other to Afghanistan, I was able to participate in and lead numerous combat operations. In Iraq as the II MEF Director, Lioness Program, I served as a subject matter expert for II MEF, assisting regimental and battalion commanders on ways to integrate female Marines into combat operations. I primarily focused on expanding the mission of the Lioness Program from searching females to engaging local nationals and information gathering, broadening the ways females were being used in a wide variety of combat operations from census patrols to raids. In Afghanistan I deployed as a 1302 and led a combat engineer platoon in direct support of Regimental Combat Team 8, specifically operating out of the Upper Sangin Valley. My platoon operated for months at a time, constructing patrol bases (PBs) in support of 3d Battalion, 5th Marines; 1st Battalion, 5th Marines; 2d Reconnaissance Battalion; and 3d Battalion, 4th Marines. This combat experience, in particular, compelled me to raise concern over the direction and overall reasoning behind opening the 03XX field.
Who is driving this agenda? I am not personally hearing female Marines, enlisted or officer, pounding on the doors of Congress claiming that their inability to serve in the infantry violates their right to equality. Shockingly, this isn’t even a congressional agenda. This issue is being pushed by several groups, one of which is a small committee of civilians appointed by the Secretary of Defense called the Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Service (DACOWITS). Their mission is to advise the Department of Defense (DoD) on recommendations, as well as matters of policy, pertaining to the well-being of women in the Armed Services from recruiting to employment. Members are selected based on their prior military experience or experience with women’s workforce issues. I certainly applaud and appreciate DACOWITS’ mission; however, as it pertains to the issue of women in the infantry, it’s very surprising to see that none of the committee members are on active duty or have any recent combat or relevant operational experience relating to the issue they are attempting to change. I say this because, at the end of the day, it’s the active duty servicemember who will ultimately deal with the results of their initiatives, not those on the outside looking in. As of now, the Marine Corps hasn’t been directed to integrate, but perhaps the Corps is anticipating the inevitable—DoD pressuring the Corps to comply with DACOWITS’ agenda as the Army has already “rogered up” to full integration. Regardless of what the Army decides to do, it’s critical to emphasize that we are not the Army; our operational speed and tempo, along with our overall mission as the Nation’s amphibious force-in-readiness, are fundamentally different than that of our sister Service. By no means is this distinction intended as disrespectful to our incredible Army. My main point is simply to state that the Marine Corps and the Army are different; even if the Army ultimately does fully integrate all military occupational fields, that doesn’t mean the Corps should follow suit.
I understand that there are female servicemembers who have proven themselves to be physically, mentally, and morally capable of leading and executing combat-type operations; as a result, some of these Marines may feel qualified for the chance of taking on the role of 0302. In the end, my main concern is not whether women are capable of conducting combat operations, as we have already proven that we can hold our own in some very difficult combat situations; instead, my main concern is a question of longevity. Can women endure the physical and physiological rigors of sustained combat operations, and are we willing to accept the attrition and medical issues that go along with integration?
As a young lieutenant, I fit the mold of a female who would have had a shot at completing IOC, and I am sure there was a time in my life where I would have volunteered to be an infantryman. I was a star ice hockey player at Bowdoin College, a small elite college in Maine, with a major in government and law. At 5 feet 3 inches I was squatting 200 pounds and benching 145 pounds when I graduated in 2007. I completed Officer Candidates School (OCS) ranked 4 of 52 candidates, graduated 48 of 261 from TBS, and finished second at MOS school. I also repeatedly scored far above average in all female-based physical fitness tests (for example, earning a 292 out of 300 on the Marine physical fitness test). Five years later, I am physically not the woman I once was and my views have greatly changed on the possibility of women having successful long careers while serving in the infantry. I can say from firsthand experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not just emotion, that we haven’t even begun to analyze and comprehend the gender-specific medical issues and overall physical toll continuous combat operations will have on females.
I was a motivated, resilient second lieutenant when I deployed to Iraq for 10 months, traveling across the Marine area of operations (AO) and participating in numerous combat operations. Yet, due to the excessive amount of time I spent in full combat load, I was diagnosed with a severe case of restless leg syndrome. My spine had compressed on nerves in my lower back causing neuropathy which compounded the symptoms of restless leg syndrome. While this injury has certainly not been enjoyable, Iraq was a pleasant experience compared to the experiences I endured during my deployment to Afghanistan. At the beginning of my tour in Helmand Province, I was physically capable of conducting combat operations for weeks at a time, remaining in my gear for days if necessary and averaging 16-hour days of engineering operations in the heart of Sangin, one of the most kinetic and challenging AOs in the country. There were numerous occasions where I was sent to a grid coordinate and told to build a PB from the ground up, serving not only as the mission commander but also the base commander until the occupants (infantry units) arrived 5 days later. In most of these situations, I had a sergeant as my assistant commander, and the remainder of my platoon consisted of young, motivated NCOs. I was the senior Marine making the final decisions on construction concerns, along with 24-hour base defense and leading 30 Marines at any given time. The physical strain of enduring combat operations and the stress of being responsible for the lives and well-being of such a young group in an extremely kinetic environment were compounded by lack of sleep, which ultimately took a physical toll on my body that I couldn’t have foreseen.
By the fifth month into the deployment, I had muscle atrophy in my thighs that was causing me to constantly trip and my legs to buckle with the slightest grade change. My agility during firefights and mobility on and off vehicles and perimeter walls was seriously hindering my response time and overall capability. It was evident that stress and muscular deterioration was affecting everyone regardless of gender; however, the rate of my deterioration was noticeably faster than that of male Marines and further compounded by gender-specific medical conditions. At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.
There is a drastic shortage of historical data on female attrition or medical ailments of women who have executed sustained combat operations. This said, we need only to review the statistics from our entry-level schools to realize that there is a significant difference in the physical longevity between male and female Marines. At OCS the attrition rate for female candidates in 2011 was historically low at 40 percent, while the male candidates attrite at a much lower rate of 16 percent. Of candidates who were dropped from training because they were injured or not physically qualified, females were breaking at a much higher rate than males, 14 percent versus 4 percent. The same trends were seen at TBS in 2011; the attrition rate for females was 13 percent versus 5 percent for males, and 5 percent of females were found not physically qualified compared with 1 percent of males. Further, both of these training venues have physical fitness standards that are easier for females; at IOC there is one standard regardless of gender. The attrition rate for males attending IOC in 2011 was 17 percent. Should female Marines ultimately attend IOC, we can expect significantly higher attrition rates and long-term injuries for women.
There have been many working groups and formal discussions recently addressing what changes would be necessary to the current IOC period of instruction in order to accommodate both genders without producing an underdeveloped or incapable infantry officer. Not once was the word “lower” used, but let’s be honest, “modifying” a standard so that less physically or mentally capable individuals (male or female) can complete a task is called “lowering the standard”! The bottom line is that the enemy doesn’t discriminate, rounds will not slow down, and combat loads don’t get any lighter, regardless of gender or capability. Even more so, the burden of command does not diminish for a male or female; a leader must gain the respect and trust of his/her Marines in combat. Not being able to physically execute to the standards already established at IOC, which have been battle tested and proven, will produce a slower operational speed and tempo resulting in increased time of exposure to enemy forces and a higher risk of combat injury or death. For this reason alone, I would ask everyone to step back and ask themselves, does this integration solely benefit the individual or the Marine Corps as a whole, as every leader’s focus should be on the needs of the institution and the Nation, not the individual?
Which leads one to really wonder, what is the benefit of this potential change? The Marine Corps is not in a shortage of willing and capable young male second lieutenants who would gladly take on the role of infantry officers. In fact we have men fighting to be assigned to the coveted position of 0302. In 2011, 30 percent of graduating TBS lieutenants listed infantry in their top three requested MOSs. Of those 30 percent, only 47 percent were given the MOS. On the other hand, perhaps this integration is an effort to remove the glass ceiling that some observers feel exists for women when it comes to promotions to general officer ranks. Opening combat arms MOSs, particularly the infantry, such observers argue, allows women to gain the necessary exposure of leading Marines in combat, which will then arguably increase the chances for female Marines serving in strategic leadership assignments. As stated above, I have full faith that female Marines can successfully serve in just about every MOS aside from the infantry. Even if a female can meet the short-term physical, mental, and moral leadership requirements of an infantry officer, by the time that she is eligible to serve in a strategic leadership position, at the 20-year mark or beyond, there is a miniscule probability that she’ll be physically capable of serving at all. Again, it becomes a question of longevity.
Despite my personal opinion regarding the incorporation of females into the infantry community, I am not blind to the fact that females play a key role in countering the gender and cultural barriers we are facing at war, and we do have a place in combat operations. As such, a potential change that I do recommend considering strongly for female Marine officers is to designate a new secondary MOS (0305) for a Marine serving as female engagement team (FET) officer in charge (OIC). 0305s would be employed in the same way we employ drill instructors, as we do not need an enduring FET entity but an existing capability able to stand up based on operational requirements. Legitimizing a program that is already operational in the Corps would greatly benefit both the units utilizing FETs and the women who serve as FET OICs. Unfortunately, FET OICs today are not properly screened and trained for this mission. I propose that those being considered for FET OIC be prescreened and trained through a modified IOC with an appropriately adjusted physical expectation. FET OICs need to better understand the infantry culture and mindset and work with their 0302 brethren to incorporate FET assistance during specific phases of operations to properly prepare them to serve as the subject matter experts to a regimental- or battalion-level infantry commander. Through joint OIC training, both 0302s and FET OICs can start to learn how to integrate capabilities and accomplish their mission individually and collectively. This, in my mind, is a much more viable, cost-effective solution, with high reward for the Marine Corps and the Nation, and it will also directly improve the capabilities of FET OICs.
Finally, what are the Marine Corps standards, particularly physical fitness standards, based on—performance and capability or equality? We abide by numerous discriminators, such as height and weight standards. As multiple Marine Corps Gazette articles have highlighted, Marines who can run first-class physical fitness tests and who have superior MOS proficiency are separated from the Service if they do not meet the Marine Corps’ height and weight standards. Further, tall Marines are restricted from flying specific platforms, and color blind Marines are faced with similar restrictions. We recognize differences in mental capabilities of Marines when we administer the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery and use the results to eliminate/open specific fields. These standards are designed to ensure safety, quality, and the opportunity to be placed in a field in which one can sustain and succeed.
Which once again leads me, as a ground combat-experienced female Marine Corps officer, to ask, what are we trying to accomplish by attempting to fully integrate women into the infantry? For those who dictate policy, changing the current restrictions associated with women in the infantry may not seem significant to the way the Marine Corps operates. I vehemently disagree; this potential change will rock the foundation of our Corps for the worse and will weaken what has been since 1775 the world’s most lethal fighting force. In the end, for DACOWITS and any other individual or organization looking to increase opportunities for female Marines, I applaud your efforts and say thank you. However, for the long-term health of our female Marines, the Marine Corps, and U.S. national security, steer clear of the Marine infantry community when calling for more opportunities for females. Let’s embrace our differences to further hone in on the Corps’ success instead of dismantling who we are to achieve a political agenda. Regardless of the outcome, we will be “Semper Fidelis” and remain focused on our mission to protect and defend the United States of America.




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Comments
CPT Petronia
CPT Petronio:
The important thing about your article and your publicity is simple: You approach is fact- and experience-based, and your judgment rests on the only criterion that matters: How will having women in the infantry affect the lifes of other soldiers and the outcome of the mission?
That is the analysis I expect from a professional officer. Bravo for a bravura perfomance - and the will and courage to say the unpopular, unpolitic thing.
L. A. Frost
LTC, Intelligence Corps, U.S.A (Ret)
Former Marine NCO
Common Sense
As a retired infantry/special operations officer I applaude this woman coming foreward. It took her a great deal of courage to come forward. Thank you for your actions
what special operations team?
what special operations team did you command? You didnt and your a liar.
It's about time!
I have to give Capt. Petronio kudos for saying something which is contrary to the current politically correct rhetoric that is popular in American society. As a former Marine and a current 43 year-old law student, my time in law school has shown me that we all are not created equal. To assume that we all are created equal is tantamount to assuming that just because one is born in America, all Americans have access to the same socio-economic advantages as wealthy Americans. It's about time a woman had the courage to admit that there are some physical differences between men and women (beside the obvious), and give a well written and reasoned argument for her position instead of following the masses of women. Thank you Capt. Petronio!
Former U.S. Marine Infantryman
You wouldn't understand
I read all the responses above from so many different people and I notice a common theme, so few are actually in the Infantry or have been recently. No disrespect to those who have served, you did your time and should be commended, but things are different now.
I am a Lieutenant in the Infantry right now and I can say with 100% conviction, women have no place and no right to serve in the Infantry. Every day I come to work I experience another reason not to have women in this field, if you are in the Infantry you know exactly what I am talking about. Why do we have separate standards for Physical Fitness tests for men and women if we are trying to argue that women are "equal"? Why has the Army and Marines said for 100+ years that their physical standards are not the same. it's funny that you don't see Congressional Committees or Women's Rights groups begging for a standardized PT test or for some equalization on the physical fitness standards but you can't get them to shut up about how they deserve to be Infantry.
Try a 12 mile ruck march with 50+ pounds on your back and see how long the women last, they are always last. Try putting on your full battle rattle (45+ pounds) and patrolling for 24hrs and see how fast the women fall out or have to give their gear to somebody else. I don't say any of this to be masogonistic or demeaning but rather it's the truth and anybody who has spent a minute in the Infantry knows it.
Do me and the rest of the Infantry a favor, leave us alone. We have been doing just fine for quite some time now and we don't need anybody to tell us that allowing women is going to make us better.
It's like there's an echo!
At least some one had the balls to say it like it is. I swear I heard 37 people saying the exact same thing over the course of the last week.
- From an Infantry Squad Leader currently deployed.
The Good Lieutenant
Sir! Thank You!
I served in the infantry from 1996 to 2000 and it was bar-none the hardest thing I have ever done! I was an exceptionally physically fit male prior to the Corps, with a expert training in various martial arts. I was an avid climber, runner, and physical conditioning affectionado and being a U.S. Marine Infantryman was STILL the hardest thing and the PROUDEST thing I have ever done. I say all of this as a testement to the rigors and training of infantryman everywhere, but especially MARINES. FEMALES CANNOT and WILL NOT hack the long-term (more than a couple or three months) of sustained combat and training deployments necessary for an infantry fighting force. PERIOD! I have seen WM's consistently and in majority fall out of forced marches (humps), give up their packs, rifles, and LBV's to male couter-parts, and overall just contribute to the ineffective readiness of the unit.
Combat 0302
I've read through the entire comment section and WOW! there are some serious comments that have been made and about 60% of them make sense. I was an 0369 (infantry) for 23 years, I retired prior to selection to Master Gunnery Sergeant after finding out that I was heading back to the infantry. During my career I spent two tours as a Drill Instructor and 4 Infantry tours with 2 Combat tours. I was physical freak... capable of enduring just about anything that you can dish out. I have had reconstructed surgery with both ankles and knees along with some serious shoulder and back issues. I would of been a casuality had I stuck around for 30 years, and if not me someone else would of been. I made that choice so no one would get hurt or killed.
We are AMERICANS, If the enemy had a female Officer in his sights, she would be the primary target. If she is hit, as Americans we would risk much more lives cause we wouldn't want our women to suffer...we are raised to protect out Country and our way of life, our women are the way of life for us Americans. I will not dispute that we have some extrodinary women out there doing some absolute hard as nails stuff, just leave that part of Combat to the men. I don't know of any women out there that could of handled Combat Operations in Viet Nam/Iwo Jima etc etc...
red thriller jacket
Totally amazing post. Love to read it. Red Thriller Jacket
Excuses
No matter how well written an excuse is, it is still an excuse. What I see in this article is a full resume, and a lot of, "I," statements that tell me you are scared of change. The truth is simple. Men and women have the same abilities, and capabilities to maintain their physical stamina over the years. Our bodies are only different in their gender, not their physical abilities. Men say things like, "Men and women are different and that is by design," to continue keeping us behind them in everything. I refuse to believe that there was any 'design' that makes me weaker than that of anyone else on the planet. The only reason articles like this even exist is because women have been trained through statemenst of 'design' in our society from birth to live in the shaddow of men. Yes, it is scary to come out from behind that shadow and announce to all the world that we are equals. Yes, this will cause some discomfort as all changes tend to do. What sounds like really happend to me is that you were offered a prestigious opportunity, and turned it down because you still want to live in the shadow of men. If you don't want to be in the 03XX fields, simply say so for yourself. Do not pretend to speak for other women of active duty whom you do not know, and do not have any communication with. Your opinion is your own, as is mine, but I will say as a former Marine that I would have LOVED the opportunity and the challenge that that field had to offer.
Semper Fi
I am all for women and
I am all for women and equality, but nooooooo. Women in the infantry is not a good idea. I have talked with many military men and they do not want them there; they feel they will compromise their mission; the men admit they will go out of their way to "save the women" and not follow mission protocol. Also, there is the 'sex' issue. Come on people, let our men do their jobs. Why do we want to infiltrate our warriors with a bunch of women that really aren't bred to be there. We have an important and intelligent place in the military, but we don't belong out there in combat situations. I have heard many stories about women curling up under fire. There are some things that don't need to be changed.
I am a rhino, lion, shark, chimpanzee, etc. trainer and I believe in equal rights; but, we are not all created equal
The Marine Corps is changing for the worst
Throughout this entire blog there are several points to women and their combat capabilities. OK! Statically, women are strong; this however is not proven in all occasions. All points below point bring up personal values to equality then, political correctness. Is there fairness in combat? Should there be, and do we think the enemy really looks at fairness when we seek to destroy them? Is it fair to put the unit in harm’s way because a few can make it yet, the majority cannot? What will happen should we pursue this venture? Let's look at the structure here. There is limited time and supplies when the bullets start flying. Men in physiological terms are seen as the protector or guardian. Women are very strong and determined and yes, more than capable of moment to moment decisions. However, mentally both sexes have a breaking point and health needs. In combat, you bring only what you need, and time is critical. A man will need certain things to get by as do women right? Let’s look at hygiene. Realistically, we all need to stay clean to stay healthy, OK then. What do the sexes need to accomplish this? Well, water would be an essential to drink as well as bathing moderately. On average, bathing is possible every 30 or so days; maybe. In recent conflicts or if you prefer to call them “wars”, facilities were available because we focus on quality of life, and resource capable. Please do not think this is definite can do! Everything costs extreme amounts of dollars when the locale does not offer what you want.
Ok, are you still with me? Next is physical requirements and training to meet minimal conditioning.
Standards are not a goal but, rather a starting point. In the military, we train to a standard and this brings the individual only to a basic stress and physically level of understanding. Combat is the unknown…. (How does a controlled test really prove you can do something under extreme stress?)
Ok, moving on here… Next, in the physical training area, we look at the Marine Corps requirements.
Too start, the MC has two standards. Males and Females…hmmm… yet each field and rank competes for the same limited gain. (Promotions, Awards and other amenities) Is this equality, and then ask yourself, how is this rational? Apparently, DOD and ever service knows the extreme difference, or the standards would be only one!
So now you’re thinking, “what is the point here?” Well, the confliction gets even greater.
As many probably know, under each standard are levels of quality in scores and the age to which the scores are obtained to compete for the next grade or position. Wait now, it gets even more conflicting on equality.
Let’s talk about ratios. This is something many will deny but, the United States is as a whole is concerned with race distribution above capability. (if you do not be believe this, notice the ratio race inserts on every promote MARADMIN for example.) If you think they promote only on quality, you’re mistakenly wrong!
Pointing no fingers here but what is the right way to go? The discrepancy keeps enlarging and Corps sinks farther and farther from the elite fighting force.
Terrific article though the Government will not listen. Thier to worry about politics, and correctness. The MC is a fighting force, not politicians. Knock when you want something killed! Stay out of the killers backyard......
Undecided
Undecided
Women in the Infantry
I am a proud Infantry Officer (Canadian, so let the comments roll). I attended West Point for a semester on an exchange program, and have been in the military for almost 12 years (albeit 5 of those years were military university and training). I have met the same standards as the men, I have been to Afghanistan, I have held many posts that I cannot talk about here due to operational security. I train my body hard (but smart) so that I am mentally and physically capable of doing my job and meeting ALL requirements. Are there women who attempted this alongside me? yes, very very few and did not succeed. But there are women serving in the Infantry, Armoured, Engineer and Artillery branches that have earned the respect of all who have served alongside them. Instead of commenting without any experience or knowledge base, take a look at countries who have not lowered their standards for women (there are no tailored training exercises or operational tours specifically for the platoon/company with "the chick") No one is carrying our rucksacks or taking on additional weight to compensate. No one is firing extra rounds because we cannot engage the enemy (afraid to get our nails dirty?). I could discuss this for hours with more examples. This woman has not completed the training to be an Infantryman, officer or service member. I can assure you the training alone is challenging and that is before you are posted to a unit for further and constant training. The issue should not be about gender, it should be about ensuring the standards are maintained. If that means very few women, then so be it. But as a country who embodies the meaning of "spreading the beacon of light and freedom" to other countries, you should not discriminate based on age/race/gender etc. We are all being raised in the same manner these day, the men are not out hunting while the women raise the kids. Just as we have changed through the ages (from neanderthals, etc) women are now developing more strength, and a hunters mindset. Not all, not most, but a select few now. In years to come, it will be more apparant. Get with the ages.
An actual example instead of speculation -- Try reading it
In case anybody skimming these comments missed it (above):
1. "No one is carrying our rucksacks or taking on additional weight to compensate."
2. "No one is firing extra rounds because we cannot engage the enemy"
3. "the standards are maintained"
That is all.
She says this as a 5'3 woman.
She says this as a 5'3 woman. A 5'3'' man would face similar hardships. Once again this has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with body and ablility. I am 5'8'' and have no problems doing anything asked of me.
My husband is a retired gunny
My husband is a retired gunny and we both agree a hundred percent with what Capt. Petronio stated. Why fix something that is not broken? In an effort to be politically correct, many lives will undoubtedly be lost as a result. The captain really hit the nail on the head and we salute her for it. Semper Fi!
Try to think
Theis has nothing to do with being PC. This has to do with reality. There have been a lot of rules over the years where women were not allowed to do things because they were too weak, too slow, too frail, whatever. When the rules were changed, we found the o,d ideas were wrong (did not apply to all women, just as they DID apply to some men). Why not just have requirements and let the people who meet me get the job. If no women meet them, fine. If women do meet them, why would you want to keep them from doing the job? And how would that be fair?
war ain't pretty
I suppose there are a few women that have the desire, the physical strength, the physical endurance, the patriotic motives, and yes even a bit of the stupidity of youth for wanting to be in a combat infantry unit. I think that all this hub bub to fill about 1 -2% of the combat infantry ranks will fade out once we are in a different type of war; one where, due to peace time cuts, our initially committed forces are overrun. I do not envy that court martial board of the future, one that is directed to try some young inexperience lieutenant, whose platoon slaughtered enemy PWs, when the found them using dried vaginas for unit insignia, created from the captured, tortured, raped and skinned US armed forces females that were overrun. BLUF doesn’t matter if women want to, what matters is whether the 98% (males) can physiologically accept female losses without responding in a barbaric or undisciplined fashion themselves. Hope we survive the experiment. Might loose everything if we don’t.
Excellent article
Speaking as a woman who is one of the few who as a young 20 yr old handled farm work including daily pushing an 800 lb cart myself, wrestling 800 lb baby beef, who at my more advanced age still outperforms many young guys in training for amateur "MMA, " I really want the woman eager to push this agenda to reconsider the impact. I have on multiple occasions defended myself with no weapon.
Yes, a few can handle the strain of infantry combat in the short term. I know my limits and any infantry man would run me into the ground. My body would be wrecked and thrown into early menopause/ hormonal shutdown. This means deterioration from combat stress in a young person may start sooner. It is nature's way of ensuring that during times of scarcity, women did not get pregnant as easily. Although as young women their fertility is at a peak thus the pregnancies. So long term you will likely have a short career. Not long enough likely to get that combat experience for promotion. That is what this officer is saying in the article.
Also the proven dropout rate, pregnancy rate, and cost of long term health care for the female warrior makes the this agenda one that we may not be able to afford.
The counter offer she proposes is instead of lowering the standard for combat units (that way if a woman really qualifies, she is welcome to wreck her body), to consider making the frontline positions women are doing well "combat.". That is a point worth considering. Can women lead if they have frontline experience, just not the grind of an infantryman?
My concern is the tendency to lower standards because not enough women are meeting them. Military is not about fairness. It is about being the most effective fighting force because weak points means people get killed.
To the 14 yr old. Go for your dreams, and at 14 they are limitless. You are always better for dreaming high. But also consider the needs of the unit you plan to join. Meet the standards, don't demand they be dropped to be more fair.
Well researched and documented?
... in what universe?
Capt Petronio described HER experience ... a sample of one. She references no empirical data or independent research beyond that? Perhaps hers is a common experience. Perhaps it was an aberration. There is no to tell based on just one example which is why anecdotes are the anthesis of good research.
The issues she raises may have legitimacy but until a suitably large sample can be evaluated this will remain just one isolated incident.
Unless, of course, your ideology only requires you have just one cherry picked example to "prove" your case.
How much research do you need?
Why don't you read the statistics about post war effects and the escalating increase in PTSD diagnosis? Those who think that will never happen to them may be the most vulnerable.
illogical assessment
Well, yes, it was well written, style-wise, and included her experience ... But it was not well researched or well reasoned. This is something that was actually well studied over a long time and supported by many experienced men. They did leave open the option of specific assignments to remain closed. What the new policy did was remove the overall ban on women in combat. Making realistic qualifications for specific jobs/assignments is obviously critical. Why not do that instead of also having a requirement that you be male? The only reason the author gave for having a sex requirement is based on her experience of physical ailments that she thinks had to do with her sex. That is unproven and much that is known suggest that women have more stamina, etc (not greater strength, just more stamina and other related attributes). Perhaps the questions she raises can just be studied as this moves forward. Se notes that there is no shortage of men to fill these positions BECAUSE THEY ARE HIGHLY COVETED ... Yes, that is exactly why some women do want the opportunity to compete for these positions. And this also is known to have to do with access to the best routes to advancement. This is one woman's experience with restless leg syndrome and belief that this and her problem with long term health was due to her sex. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but there are ways to deal with this other than continuing the ban. There is a long history of women being prohibited from holding jobs and people making these sorts of arguments ... And when the prohibitions were lifted, I don't know of one that has ever panned out that way.
Women in the Infantry
I am a retired female police officer from a large city in Illinois. When I signed up I, too, was athletic and strong. Throughout my career I had many breakdowns which I didn't want to acknowlege. I continued fighting back. After 23 plus years of service I now recognize the instinctive defficiencies we (women) have for "killing". Sustaining survival mentality is daunting. Killing is another level. I supressed emotion for all those years to tell myself, "I can do this". After pshychiatric diagnosis and sleeplisness for months I finally admitted the price I paid to sustain the mentality, "I can do this".
Now, throuh my recovery, I can be honest about who I was meant to be. If a woman wants to sign up for the task of combat she should heed the warnings of the after affects. As Capt Petronio's article stated, you will sacrifice a precious loss which will take years to recover, your spirit.
Concur.
Concur.
combat women in marines
outstanding article. i can only hope that the" powers that be" pay attention to the words of the Capt.The Corps job IS different from the Army. Women ARE different from men(and from my perspective thank God for rhat)back in the day i was an 0311.as far as other MOS's go i have no problem with women being in combat/combat areas.it is my hope that "political correctness doesn't superceede common sense.
Changing MOS due to occupational disease?
Shouldn't Captain Petronio, and any other Marine, be permitted on approval to change MOS from infantry or aviation to a different MOS? No sense in losing a good officer when he or she could still serve America. Let them try for the Infantry. Let them pass if they're qualified, but don't shut them out because they may lose ability down the road. Let them know about the health problems they may face. But when they get weaker or injured, keep those female Marines who served; they should be role models, not just cautionary tales. I'm reminded of the military recruiter in Heinlein's Starship Troopers.
Finally someone mentions the longevity factor
Glad to see someone finally mentions the physical longevity factor that is involved with spending a career in the infantry (and other combat arms [08, 18] to a lesser extent). Infantry isn't just an MOS for grunts, but a lifestyle choice that puts a horrible toll on the body; especially if done for an entire career.
Yes, POGs see combat, but a POG's reason for existing in the Corps isn't to "locate, close, with and destroy" for between 4 & 20+ years (minus minimal time on special duties). Every grunt knows his gig is to stay up to the task of combat where POGs on the other hand rotate into relatively cushy billets far more often.
Good idea to recognize and formally document via additional MOS the FETT experience a lady may have. Don't use the 03 moniker though. Go with the 80XX numbering scheme; espcially since having an 03 MOS without having gone through SOI or IOC would be well...weak.
^This is one of many reasons
^This is one of many reasons we technocrats in the Sub Service respect the dedication and endurance (and patience for FMF!) of Infantry.
- this is the core of any military that intends to engange and close an action on land. It is vital to maintain high infantry standards, something I've always thought was a given in our USMC.
Well said.
Capt. Petronio, send me a snail mail and I'll send you a book.
Thomas Kratman
LTC, US Army, Retired
tomkratman.com
Nailed It!
Ma'am,
What a wonderfully well written article! I think you really expressed the concerns the vast majority of the Marine Corps has with these up coming changes.
Ma'am...
Being USMC, you should know that "Ma'am" is for civilians, and SHE is an officer. WHAT kind of devil are you?
^^^ not!
^^^ not!
Huh?
So how should I address a Commissioned FEMALE Officer, "Oh Captain my Captain" perhaps? Male is 'Sir', Female is 'Ma'am'. Think that was taught at my second poole meeting BEFORE Bootcamp.
MSgt Van Zanten (Retired)
Women and the Afghan culture
A friend at the II MEF Advisor Training Cell recently told me that female Marines will be on every newly formed advisor team. Which brings up an entirely different point about women in combat and our changing role in Afghanistan. Their culture may be as enlightened as ours one day, but it is not now. FETs play an extraordinarily important role as they frequently provide access to a denied part of the population and gain good intelligence. But in the infantry, and across combat arms, the part of our mission focused on partnering and combat advising is going to grow over the coming years. How can we be effective at that if our gender, right or wrong, automatically manifests contempt in our Afghan partner?
Obviously you have never talked to an Afghan man.
I have two tours in Afghanistan, and as a U.S. military member, I have a little experience. My being female does NOT automatically breed contempt in a male or female Afghan. In fact, the opposite is true. Whether on patrol, or living outside the wire, or working in Village Stability Operations I have have met and talked to thousands of Afghans, mostly male. They are eager to talk to me over my male counterparts because I am non-threatening, and they know I am here to help and not fight. I can ask Afghan men for anything and get them to commit to projects more effectivley than the male soldiers and Marines I worked with.
Before you post, my advice is that if you don't know what you are talking about then don't write it on here.
Everybody knows what their talking about
Congratulations on your tours, I would imagine most of the people posting have also been on tours. I think that if your'e honest about what this guy is saying you'll have to admit that their way is very different from ours. I lived and worked with ANP for more months than I care to admit on more than one deployment and the way they were, especially when it cam to women, disgusted me. Nobody is questioning your accomplishments. We're talking about the people that cut off women's noses and pour acid in the faces of school girls. Were you effective with ANSF or just the villagers? The ANP I know had nothing good to say about females of any nationality.
Non threatening?
We are talking about infantry roles here, not FET roles. If you are non-threatening as a grunt then you aren't going to be a very good grunt. Direct sustained combat is the name of the game. Everything else is secondary.
how...
you win their hearts and mind. It won't happen over night. But if positive interactions and outcomes can be made, if job opportunities can be made, if... the generation that grows will be friendlier and perhaps truer to the ideals of Islam.
The Prophet loved his wife. His wife was a wealthy, educated businesswoman of higher social status than he was. Ancient Muslims were gracious hosts to people of many nationalities and religions. Education in math and sciences was valued. They were tolerant. To this day, many still are but the voices of fundamentalists have taken over.
Somehow, the fundamentalist have forgotten. They say education is not needed, let us read the Koran for you. We’ll tell you what to believe and how to act.
This comment has been deleted.
We're definitely not created equal
The title is the best part of the article. This is the same argument about ability and stereotypes. None of us are created equal, that is correct. Deciding that "all" women should be restricted from serving if they are physically qualified because you suffered echoes the same logic. I do not doubt that you served under harsh conditions, and performed admirably, but many women have also served under similarly harsh conditions, and have not experienced catastrophic breakdowns.
As long as we continue to make restrictions based on what we think someone else can do because they are male or female, we'll see men who cannot lead in combat and women who probably can but are assigned to non-combat MOSs. Maybe only a few women, but that's no reason to restrict them all.
Highlighting gender only emphasizes and reminds Marines differences between men and women that are not necessarily there. In combat environments, these barriers can create problems instead of solving them.
Agreed
No disrespect to the author, but just because she had complications doesn't mean every other woman will have the same experience. The option to participate in a combat role should be open to those women who are able to perform the associated tasks.
attrition in males
Is there similar attrition (such as the back issues) in male soldiers? I'd be surprised if they are immune to such damage.
Anecdotal evidence
The author clearly showed that her case was not atypical and that there are clear and documented differences between men and women.
I'll eat my hat
Show me the female 2d Lt who can fireman's carry a 200 lbs grunt half a mile, do 20 dead hang pull-ups and complete the mortar hike at IOC carrying her fare share of the weight. Introduce her to us all and we'll shut up and color.
Women in compat
Your a sexesr over weight pig!!.. How many small men that weigh 125 to 150 could do that
I've seen quite a few small
I've seen quite a few small men do just that...As a female Marine myself I have seen men of all sizes complete amazing feats of strength as infantrymen, but woman tend to fall short. It's not sexist. It's genetics. We are different.
Small DI
I had a short DI (5'6") who had just returned from Vietnam, he was confronted by an African-American recruit who was at least 6'2", two punches to the abs up against Quonset hut laid out the recruit. This guy could claim a rope up-side down. I do not think a woman would be able to do this, Semper Fi
Re: Women in Combat
I don't think I'm being sexist. As the author states: changing the physical standard is lowering the physical standard. No one is saying anything about tactics or leadership ability. I'm talking about machine guns, mortar base plates, and ammunition. The gear doesn't get lighter because you're smaller or not as strong. A little biographical info on me offered only so that you might understand I'm not pulling this out of thin air: I have served a little under a decade in the fleet as an infantry officer and completed a handful of combat deployments to both places. I don't know any 125 lbs male infantry officers. Most of the guys I know that are smaller in stature have to work hard to be able to keep up when it comes to hiking serious weight. We all have to work at it, and it breaks our bodies. Hiking serious weight is a fact of life in the infantry, and if you can't do it, somebody else is going to have to do it for you and that's only personal or sexist if you interpret it that way. If you can't pull your share of the weight or keep up it endangers others and the unit. I know bigots and prejudiced people have hid behind these types of arguments in the past but the gear we use is the gear we use and it isn't getting any lighter. The CASEVAC scenario is real world. Sometimes you have to pull unconscious, fully kitted service members out of burning vehicles. I'm sure that there is a female out there that could score high first class on my PFT and meet the standards at IOC but I haven't met her yet. And, again, as the author points out, there isn't a large population seeking to get into the entry level combat arms MOS schools right now that I'm aware of.
The author deserves our thanks for putting something very personal on paper so that we might learn from her experiences and maybe this dialog will help decision makers determine what is best for our Corps.
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