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Get Over It! We Are Not All Created Equal

Photo by Capt Katie Petronio
Description: 

Women can conduct and lead combat operations; that is not the issue.

The Marine Corps Times recently published a handful of articles in regard to opening Infantry Officer Course (IOC) to females and the possibility of integrating women into the infantry community. In mid-April the Commandant directed the “integration” of the first wave of female officers into IOC this summer following completion of The Basic School (TBS). This action may or may not pave the way for female Marines to serve in the infantry as the results remain to be seen. However, before the Marine Corps moves forward with this concept, should we not ask the hard questions and gain opinions of combat-experienced Marines (male and female alike) as to the purpose, the impact, and the gains from such a move? As a combat-experienced Marine officer, and a female, I am here to tell you that we are not all created equal, and attempting to place females in the infantry will not improve the Marine Corps as the Nation’s force-in-readiness or improve our national security.

As a company grade 1302 combat engineer officer with 5 years of active service and two combat deployments, one to Iraq and the other to Afghanistan, I was able to participate in and lead numerous combat operations. In Iraq as the II MEF Director, Lioness Program, I served as a subject matter expert for II MEF, assisting regimental and battalion commanders on ways to integrate female Marines into combat operations. I primarily focused on expanding the mission of the Lioness Program from searching females to engaging local nationals and information gathering, broadening the ways females were being used in a wide variety of combat operations from census patrols to raids. In Afghanistan I deployed as a 1302 and led a combat engineer platoon in direct support of Regimental Combat Team 8, specifically operating out of the Upper Sangin Valley. My platoon operated for months at a time, constructing patrol bases (PBs) in support of 3d Battalion, 5th Marines; 1st Battalion, 5th Marines; 2d Reconnaissance Battalion; and 3d Battalion, 4th Marines. This combat experience, in particular, compelled me to raise concern over the direction and overall reasoning behind opening the 03XX field.

Who is driving this agenda? I am not personally hearing female Marines, enlisted or officer, pounding on the doors of Congress claiming that their inability to serve in the infantry violates their right to equality. Shockingly, this isn’t even a congressional agenda. This issue is being pushed by several groups, one of which is a small committee of civilians appointed by the Secretary of Defense called the Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Service (DACOWITS). Their mission is to advise the Department of Defense (DoD) on recommendations, as well as matters of policy, pertaining to the well-being of women in the Armed Services from recruiting to employment. Members are selected based on their prior military experience or experience with women’s workforce issues. I certainly applaud and appreciate DACOWITS’ mission; however, as it pertains to the issue of women in the infantry, it’s very surprising to see that none of the committee members are on active duty or have any recent combat or relevant operational experience relating to the issue they are attempting to change. I say this because, at the end of the day, it’s the active duty servicemember who will ultimately deal with the results of their initiatives, not those on the outside looking in. As of now, the Marine Corps hasn’t been directed to integrate, but perhaps the Corps is anticipating the inevitable—DoD pressuring the Corps to comply with DACOWITS’ agenda as the Army has already “rogered up” to full integration. Regardless of what the Army decides to do, it’s critical to emphasize that we are not the Army; our operational speed and tempo, along with our overall mission as the Nation’s amphibious force-in-readiness, are fundamentally different than that of our sister Service. By no means is this distinction intended as disrespectful to our incredible Army. My main point is simply to state that the Marine Corps and the Army are different; even if the Army ultimately does fully integrate all military occupational fields, that doesn’t mean the Corps should follow suit.

I understand that there are female servicemembers who have proven themselves to be physically, mentally, and morally capable of leading and executing combat-type operations; as a result, some of these Marines may feel qualified for the chance of taking on the role of 0302. In the end, my main concern is not whether women are capable of conducting combat operations, as we have already proven that we can hold our own in some very difficult combat situations; instead, my main concern is a question of longevity. Can women endure the physical and physiological rigors of sustained combat operations, and are we willing to accept the attrition and medical issues that go along with integration?

As a young lieutenant, I fit the mold of a female who would have had a shot at completing IOC, and I am sure there was a time in my life where I would have volunteered to be an infantryman. I was a star ice hockey player at Bowdoin College, a small elite college in Maine, with a major in government and law. At 5 feet 3 inches I was squatting 200 pounds and benching 145 pounds when I graduated in 2007. I completed Officer Candidates School (OCS) ranked 4 of 52 candidates, graduated 48 of 261 from TBS, and finished second at MOS school. I also repeatedly scored far above average in all female-based physical fitness tests (for example, earning a 292 out of 300 on the Marine physical fitness test). Five years later, I am physically not the woman I once was and my views have greatly changed on the possibility of women having successful long careers while serving in the infantry. I can say from firsthand experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not just emotion, that we haven’t even begun to analyze and comprehend the gender-specific medical issues and overall physical toll continuous combat operations will have on females.

I was a motivated, resilient second lieutenant when I deployed to Iraq for 10 months, traveling across the Marine area of operations (AO) and participating in numerous combat operations. Yet, due to the excessive amount of time I spent in full combat load, I was diagnosed with a severe case of restless leg syndrome. My spine had compressed on nerves in my lower back causing neuropathy which compounded the symptoms of restless leg syndrome. While this injury has certainly not been enjoyable, Iraq was a pleasant experience compared to the experiences I endured during my deployment to Afghanistan. At the beginning of my tour in Helmand Province, I was physically capable of conducting combat operations for weeks at a time, remaining in my gear for days if necessary and averaging 16-hour days of engineering operations in the heart of Sangin, one of the most kinetic and challenging AOs in the country. There were numerous occasions where I was sent to a grid coordinate and told to build a PB from the ground up, serving not only as the mission commander but also the base commander until the occupants (infantry units) arrived 5 days later. In most of these situations, I had a sergeant as my assistant commander, and the remainder of my platoon consisted of young, motivated NCOs. I was the senior Marine making the final decisions on construction concerns, along with 24-hour base defense and leading 30 Marines at any given time. The physical strain of enduring combat operations and the stress of being responsible for the lives and well-being of such a young group in an extremely kinetic environment were compounded by lack of sleep, which ultimately took a physical toll on my body that I couldn’t have foreseen.

By the fifth month into the deployment, I had muscle atrophy in my thighs that was causing me to constantly trip and my legs to buckle with the slightest grade change. My agility during firefights and mobility on and off vehicles and perimeter walls was seriously hindering my response time and overall capability. It was evident that stress and muscular deterioration was affecting everyone regardless of gender; however, the rate of my deterioration was noticeably faster than that of male Marines and further compounded by gender-specific medical conditions. At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.

There is a drastic shortage of historical data on female attrition or medical ailments of women who have executed sustained combat operations. This said, we need only to review the statistics from our entry-level schools to realize that there is a significant difference in the physical longevity between male and female Marines. At OCS the attrition rate for female candidates in 2011 was historically low at 40 percent, while the male candidates attrite at a much lower rate of 16 percent. Of candidates who were dropped from training because they were injured or not physically qualified, females were breaking at a much higher rate than males, 14 percent versus 4 percent. The same trends were seen at TBS in 2011; the attrition rate for females was 13 percent versus 5 percent for males, and 5 percent of females were found not physically qualified compared with 1 percent of males. Further, both of these training venues have physical fitness standards that are easier for females; at IOC there is one standard regardless of gender. The attrition rate for males attending IOC in 2011 was 17 percent. Should female Marines ultimately attend IOC, we can expect significantly higher attrition rates and long-term injuries for women.

There have been many working groups and formal discussions recently addressing what changes would be necessary to the current IOC period of instruction in order to accommodate both genders without producing an underdeveloped or incapable infantry officer. Not once was the word “lower” used, but let’s be honest, “modifying” a standard so that less physically or mentally capable individuals (male or female) can complete a task is called “lowering the standard”! The bottom line is that the enemy doesn’t discriminate, rounds will not slow down, and combat loads don’t get any lighter, regardless of gender or capability. Even more so, the burden of command does not diminish for a male or female; a leader must gain the respect and trust of his/her Marines in combat. Not being able to physically execute to the standards already established at IOC, which have been battle tested and proven, will produce a slower operational speed and tempo resulting in increased time of exposure to enemy forces and a higher risk of combat injury or death. For this reason alone, I would ask everyone to step back and ask themselves, does this integration solely benefit the individual or the Marine Corps as a whole, as every leader’s focus should be on the needs of the institution and the Nation, not the individual?

Which leads one to really wonder, what is the benefit of this potential change? The Marine Corps is not in a shortage of willing and capable young male second lieutenants who would gladly take on the role of infantry officers. In fact we have men fighting to be assigned to the coveted position of 0302. In 2011, 30 percent of graduating TBS lieutenants listed infantry in their top three requested MOSs. Of those 30 percent, only 47 percent were given the MOS. On the other hand, perhaps this integration is an effort to remove the glass ceiling that some observers feel exists for women when it comes to promotions to general officer ranks. Opening combat arms MOSs, particularly the infantry, such observers argue, allows women to gain the necessary exposure of leading Marines in combat, which will then arguably increase the chances for female Marines serving in strategic leadership assignments. As stated above, I have full faith that female Marines can successfully serve in just about every MOS aside from the infantry. Even if a female can meet the short-term physical, mental, and moral leadership requirements of an infantry officer, by the time that she is eligible to serve in a strategic leadership position, at the 20-year mark or beyond, there is a miniscule probability that she’ll be physically capable of serving at all. Again, it becomes a question of longevity.

Despite my personal opinion regarding the incorporation of females into the infantry community, I am not blind to the fact that females play a key role in countering the gender and cultural barriers we are facing at war, and we do have a place in combat operations. As such, a potential change that I do recommend considering strongly for female Marine officers is to designate a new secondary MOS (0305) for a Marine serving as female engagement team (FET) officer in charge (OIC). 0305s would be employed in the same way we employ drill instructors, as we do not need an enduring FET entity but an existing capability able to stand up based on operational requirements. Legitimizing a program that is already operational in the Corps would greatly benefit both the units utilizing FETs and the women who serve as FET OICs. Unfortunately, FET OICs today are not properly screened and trained for this mission. I propose that those being considered for FET OIC be prescreened and trained through a modified IOC with an appropriately adjusted physical expectation. FET OICs need to better understand the infantry culture and mindset and work with their 0302 brethren to incorporate FET assistance during specific phases of operations to properly prepare them to serve as the subject matter experts to a regimental- or battalion-level infantry commander. Through joint OIC training, both 0302s and FET OICs can start to learn how to integrate capabilities and accomplish their mission individually and collectively. This, in my mind, is a much more viable, cost-effective solution, with high reward for the Marine Corps and the Nation, and it will also directly improve the capabilities of FET OICs.

Finally, what are the Marine Corps standards, particularly physical fitness standards, based on—performance and capability or equality? We abide by numerous discriminators, such as height and weight standards. As multiple Marine Corps Gazette articles have highlighted, Marines who can run first-class physical fitness tests and who have superior MOS proficiency are separated from the Service if they do not meet the Marine Corps’ height and weight standards. Further, tall Marines are restricted from flying specific platforms, and color blind Marines are faced with similar restrictions. We recognize differences in mental capabilities of Marines when we administer the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery and use the results to eliminate/open specific fields. These standards are designed to ensure safety, quality, and the opportunity to be placed in a field in which one can sustain and succeed.

Which once again leads me, as a ground combat-experienced female Marine Corps officer, to ask, what are we trying to accomplish by attempting to fully integrate women into the infantry? For those who dictate policy, changing the current restrictions associated with women in the infantry may not seem significant to the way the Marine Corps operates. I vehemently disagree; this potential change will rock the foundation of our Corps for the worse and will weaken what has been since 1775 the world’s most lethal fighting force. In the end, for DACOWITS and any other individual or organization looking to increase opportunities for female Marines, I applaud your efforts and say thank you. However, for the long-term health of our female Marines, the Marine Corps, and U.S. national security, steer clear of the Marine infantry community when calling for more opportunities for females. Let’s embrace our differences to further hone in on the Corps’ success instead of dismantling who we are to achieve a political agenda. Regardless of the outcome, we will be “Semper Fidelis” and remain focused on our mission to protect and defend the United States of America.

Comments

Extend females training time,

Extend females training time, yet females want equal treatment?! I'm an instructor at SOI and I can tell you this; doesn't matter how tough SOME females are. They are constantly falling out of every hike, and bodies are more prone to hip and back injuries. I'm sick of seeing female students sit around for a year or more to rehabilitate an injury received during training; only to get separated with a full disability check for the rest of their life. They can't hack the regular training, they're PFT & CFT scores have a huge handicap,(which allows them to attain higher score to get promoted faster..coincidentally) yet you think they should be allowed to serve in the most physically demanding job that even some males can't survive in??!! Ludicrous.

And this strength will be

And this strength will be tested at the same standard of males.

Pulled this line from Females are not as weak as you think

Work on changing the PFT qualifications to be the same as males and females. Once you achieve that, then fight for women to volunteer to be an 03XX

Yours truely,

A former 0311 and brother to a female 1341

That's just stupid, and what

That's just stupid, and what you are asking for is just another way of saying you need to lower the standard. I would love to know what unit and MOS you where with when you were carrying this 100lb load and what conflict. I have a real hard time believing it. You don't know what your talking about in regards to what SOI is or even how long the training is.

100

Try 130 pound load with Army special forces in Afghanistan, only a true fobbit wouldnt believe a 100 pound load. I wasnt the one who originally posted just thought you should know that real operators are carrying 100+ all day. 

No time for Females

Who’s paying for the extra time to get up to speed? 

And if extra time is the only thing needed how come sports women cannot match sports men?

Females are not as weak as you think

Amazing, So you want women given extra time to get ready for Combat Infantry. Bottom Line, you either can or you can't. I was in the US Army for 8 years and while I was NOT in the Infantry I had to stay physically fit all the time. In my 8 years, if I had gone to war I would NOT want a women to be there. The biggest reason is the stress that occurs. I need someone to cover my back.

Check the Standards now in Boot or Basic Training. If you want equality, make them even. One Standard for all. Only let the best get in, be it Man or Women.

What about the Cost. My god don't even want to think about that. Do all that and the candidate washes out.

My 2 cents Right or Wrong!

 

wrong

I was Army Special Forces for 5 years. There is no way in hell that a woman can ruck 130 pounds like a man. I am a strong guy who was better than every guy in infantry basic training in physical fitness, a 45 pound ruck was nothing I can run with that like most women can run without it. 130 pounds is a different story, that is even difficult for me to ruck for a couple weeks. I have seen extensive combat in Afghanistan and Ill tell you that I would turn in my tab and beret before serving with a female because I would KNOW that she wasnt THE VERY BEST. The infantry is no place for social justice. Im right and you know it and that is why you will cry about it.

Females are not as weak as you think.

Let's think about that subject line for a minute. You don't just wake up one day - as a female - and say, I think I will join the infantry and give me concessions to get up to standards as my male counterparts. Why don't you just start training "on your own" instead of asking for concessions if you know you have a desire to be in a combat MOS.  You are just weakening your argument by saying that. 

.

Really...

"As an USMC enlisted vet who just happens to be a female, I can assure you that we marched with a force load of 100 lbs plus our own weight with weapon."

I call BS.

Carrying your gear from across the flightline from the aircraft to the truck does not count.

testosterone

And that's exactly the reason why women should be barred from infantry, because in order to match up with men, they would eventually need to take testosterone enhancement pills, which could result in having them numerous health problems, such as infertility and even ovarian cancer, and is it worth it to have these women-specific health problems for the sake of equal opportunity?

Just stop making yourself

Just stop making yourself sound stupid. You have no idea what you are even talking about.

Re: Females are not as weak as you think

I would like to see combat made available to females but on a volunteer basis with the one caveat

Females have considerably lower levels of testosterone and do not have the advantage of speed in the realm of muscle build up. But, and it needs to be stressed, muscle build up is possible. And so for females, a similar buffer zone would need to be provided.

maybe 6 months after boot camp and provide large amounts of physical conditioning with the corresponding mental conditioning

But additional time must be provided to females to condition their bodies first.

Each one of those comments indicates inequality and/or the need for different standards.

It is that prep time that makes the 'standards' possible for infantry.

This comment just does not make sense to me.  There is no "prep" time.  As far as men are concerned, either you make it or you don't.  Infantry officers (target of the article) do not have "boot camp" and "SOI"; they have OCS and TBS.  Both of those and boot camp have varying standards for the genders.  If you say they dont, then you are disillusioned.  If they want to meet the standards, they start training before they volunteer.  What makes the 'standards' possible for infantry is the fact that they are pushed and not given an opportunity to fail. 

Having worked with grunts (I am a Comm Marine) I can tell you that they do not, THEY WILL NOT, accept failure.  Failure means death.  They would rather put a bullet in someone that puts them in danger than let that person get them killed.  We made sure we pushed our operators and maintainers to the limit physically in an effort to keep them from being that hinderance.  Even the writer said she suffered from atrophy and that hers was much quicker and more noticable than the males.  I know Marines that have had 5, 6, plus combat deployments and I do not believe that someone who takes longer to get to a point to handle the establish standards (your argument) and atrophies faster (writer's experience) would ever continually survive that punishment.  If they can't do it long-term as is expected of our males, then they should not be there.

holy crap

The fact that the average woman can't bench press over 200 has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that American culture doesn't encourage women to gain muscle mass. I can't believe I'm even responding to such an asinine assertion. This woman in the article just got done saying that she's been serving in the marines for a while and maxes out at 145. I don't think you understand how weak that is for a male. An average male can walk into the gym on his first day and bench somewhere from 100-150. After years of military training, any man who couldn't bench press 200 would have to be considered pitiful. I work out 3 days a week (hardly arnold schwarzennegar), and I'm not a huge guy.. 5'8, 180, and my bench press would be in the top 10 of females in the world (tested for steroids) according to the lists I've seen. It's not a comparison. If you want to have an honest debate, that's fine, but there's no place for your ridiculous feminist propaganda.

Re. Females are not as weak as you think

Where is this buffer zone? We are a nation at war, there is no time to allow anyone (female, male) to condition. As an infantry Marine I was pushed through SOI only to hit the FMF and be sent to Mojave Viper for a month and half and then it was off to Iraq.
This is to give you endurance, spending all your energy digging a fighting hole only to be ambushed in which you need to counterattack and bound for 1000 yards.
We must also look at the resources needed to accommodate for women in the infantry; millions of dollars would be spent on WM barracks, training and building the cohesion of a squad only to find that you must replace one due to pregnancy. The image that would be portrayed in the media, "woman Marine 3 months pregnant burned to death when she hit an IED."
Bottom line I am all for having the best brother by my side even if it is a sister, but this is no time for a social experiment, Both strategically and economically.

Thank You

This is a perfect comment

I have not heard one person tell me how this in any way enhances force effectiveness. In fact it has been the opposite.

The argument for women in combat seems to be either,

1. Women “want” to serve in combat units so they should be allowed to.

This is dumb because 30% of male officers want to serve in the infantry and only 48% of them are even chosen for the training and of that group 25% will fail out. The simple truth is this is the military, not everyone gets what they want.

2. Women if given enough time, extra training, or some other “assistance” will eventually be able to pass the minimal standards for the infantry.

I am sorry but as a UMSC Infantry Platoon Sergeant I do not want some one who can barely pass the minimal standards. In fact when I get a Marine who does not progress past this point they are put in “non-essential” roles and forced out of the Marines.

I agree with you completely I will fight besides anyone who can increase the combat effectiveness of the unit male, female, black, white, brown, blue, bi, gay, transvestite, I think you get the point. No one whoever has been able to present a logical argument of how women can contribute in combat roles to raise the overall combat effectiveness of the unit. It seems in fact to be the opposite.

Open up and with prep time

Here's my gripe with that hard charger.  I'm all about equality but when you say you need prep time and needs to be open on voluntary basis you are already negating the eqaulity.  Many men who go infantry at TBS do not get the choice.  They are told to go infantry.  So if women only HAVE to go when they VOLUNTEER you are already setting your own double standard.  Until we are ready to send women blanketly (as blanketly as we do men anyway) and they meet their fate at IOC or in combat we are not ready to open it up to them at all.  I'd like to hear comments on this from everyone but especially those who argue for the "equality" side of this.

sign off

forgot,

 

Sincerely,

 

Marine/Cop

And I can look forward to many other broken women joining me

As I'm a female veteran who was separated after three years of service with irreparably ruined knees. I'm 5'6, I weighed 130 pounds of solid muscle when I was active duty, and I scored an average of 287 on my PFTs. I could carry the loads and move in them fine. No one EVER had to carry my gear for me. But cumulatively, I damaged the meniscus in my knees and then the cartilage behind it started ripping away. I'm lucky because, as long as I wasn't on my feet, it was painless. I'm not lucky because now my knees just randomly give out on me if I stand the wrong way. If I'm not ready for it or don't have time to grab something, it puts me flat on my ass. And cartilage doesn't grow back, so I'm 40% disabled for the rest of my life. I'm 31.

Women--the vast majority of women--aren't made to carry the amount of muscle a man is. Our bones are smaller. Naturally occurring muscle from physical activity tends to be leaner, and we have to mess with our chemistry to put on serious muscle mass. It's not a training issue. It's a biological issue. A 5'6 woman, no matter how hard she trains, is never going to be able to carry the amount of muscle a 6'1 man can. 

But aside from the physical demands and the excellent points this article made, there's a BIG problem people are overlooking, what I call the Jessica Lynch factor. Until our country is prepared to deal with a tortured and mutilated female soldier (Google Thomas Tucker and Kristian Menchaca, if you have a strong stomach) without sending in Special Ops to find her, then no woman has any business anywhere near the front lines. You put women there, they will be captured. And in addition to the bevy of offerings a male soldier or Marine would face from Al Queda or whoever the enemy du jour is, a female can also be raped. Raped, tortured, mutilated, AND executed, with 24 hour news coverage there to broadcast this one woman's fate to the listening world. Anyone here want to see that on the news? Anyone think the military wouldn't move heaven and earth to save her, even at the expense of male lives?

And after the first woman met that fate, how would male soldiers and Marines in every other unit in the United States military treat their female comrades? They would jeopardize themselves AND the mission to protect them. My brother was a Marine. (My whole family is--father, brother, AND sister, too.) He came home from basic training having carried his sister Marines' gear for them and utterly convinced that they were going to get him killed.

no you didnt. so basically

no you didnt. so basically your reccomendation is to make women into men?

Science

Your comment directly contradicts your statement. 

I your statement you say "females are not as weak as you think" then is your comment you admit that it would take possibly 6 months for women to achieve the same level of fitness as a male.

Just from your own admission women are significantly weaker then men and it takes a longer time for them to build muscle. This has been proven over and over again. In fact there is a ratio that has been studied and shows it takes women at least 3 times are long as a male to reach peak physical performance and even at this level of peak performance it is directly comparable to the average 45 year old fit man. We do not let 45 year old men join and fight in are infantry so why are we considering letting females? I can see no reason why this should be done by your own admission it would take longer, more money, and the result would be an inferior product.

Good answer

Good answer. Don't call yourself an "Army Puke". We have the best soldiers in the world. We are just part of diffferent services. The US Army has a little different mission.

You're an idiot

Typical response when faced with the facts. Instead of challenging the good captain on the specifics of her essay, and on the merit of the reply posted, you have resorted to name calling.  This is the response of an individual who has no first hand knowledge of the subject and only wants to show that they are politically correct in their judgement. This is the sign of someone who would rather have an entire squad killed in combat than prevent their deaths for the sake of an argument. You are the reason that mediocracy has replaced merit in our society.

For the good captain, thank you for your honesty. Semper fi.

The military must be a meritocracy

The is nothing wrong with discrimiation in a meritocrcy when it is based on ability.  The question is is the military a meriticracy or a social justice experiment.  It is not the fault of the women becuase thier hearts are definately in it but we don't put 5 foot tall women on the offensive line in a football game either.  If the military is not a meritocracy, our country is doomed.

You obviously didn't read the article.

Comment.  

Women in the Infantry

Yes it is discrimination plain and simple.  But discrimination can be a good thing or a bad thing.  Science (experience through trial & error)  should determine whether women ought to have combat roles.  Political "correctness" should have no role in decison-making.

I think the point Captain Petronio is making is that, for the female body, combat stuff can work in the short term but not in the long term.  Is that what 'We The People' want?  Are we making an informed decision or a politically correct decision?  Is the Commander-in-Chief making an informed decision or a politically correct one by having women in combat roles?  I think I will send a link to Petronio's article to Michelle Obama.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Got a kick out of this!

We had a LOT of 'discrimination' in the Sub Service:

- gotta do interviews, including w/ 4* in charge to be accepted

- gotta qualify (again and again) and stand watch to be worthy to 'eat the bread, drink the water and breathe the air.

- gotta pass boards (again and again) to be retained and promoted.

Best Regards,

This is not discrimination

There are hundreds of occupations in this country that limit exactly who can participate. The vast majority base this discrimination on intelligence and educational levels, but the end result is the same. Should medical schools admit and graduate students who are not capable of doing the work? How about engineering schools? If I were to bring a lawsuit against MIT stating it is wrong that it refused me admittance due to low SAT and math ability I would be laughed out of the court. Should a person with depth perception issues be allowed to become an airline pilot, blind people bus drivers, etc.

The same situation is in place with the Marines. A woman's physiology is simply inferior to a man's and even if a woman is able to meet the basic physical requirement to enter the field odds are her body will break down well before a man would. There is nothing wrong for this, mother nature simply designed the two bodies to accomplish different tasks and no amount of legislsation can alter that fact.

The other issue is sex, but I will leave that for others to argue.

Do you

do you have to opportunity to raise your test scores?

He needs atleast 6 months to

He needs atleast 6 months to catch up to the standard

Would you rather play against

Would you rather play against an all male football team or a mixed male/female football team -- and let's say the that the life of your children depended on the outcome of the game?  This is the essential moral hoice that the author points out.

It's not

It's not discrimmination...its physical limits...wake up and smell the coffee.

MSgt Scott

 

No Man is comparable to Captain Petronio

The United States of America does indeed belong to its citizens. Those citizens are comprised of men and women. Those citizens recognize that men and women are not equal to each other by any stretch of the imagination. Each gender has its strengths and weaknesses. It's insane to insist that a woman be capable physically and mentally to do what a man does just as it is impossible for a man to be able to do what a woman is capable of physically and mentally.

To use the term "discrimination" and the socially constructed term "gender" as opposed to the biological term "sex" to distinguish between the men and women in the military to disguise a thinly veiled argument, not based on fact but on a political objective designed to meet an agenda that is not concerned with the safety and lives of all our military personnel, is to engage in logical fallacy in argumentation with the only possible motive being malice aforethought with criminal intent.

It's high time for facts to be used in making decisions about women's role in combat and how they can best serve our country as women and not rely on a very small, inexperienced political committee formed by the DoD to make ill-informed disasterous decisions. We've all had enough of those who pretend to know what they are doing and prove to have no clue.

Perhaps those women and men on the DoD committee should be deployed for a one year period of active duty and their superior female and male officers can observe their performance and then from the formal report make a decision on who was better capable of doing what or if any of those men and women were capable of performing at all. Then decisions can be made based on fact.

Women in the Infantry

Guess you didn't read the article too carefully, or maybe you are just one of those that doesn't want to be confused by the facts. 

You say there are "both male and female (Marines) that suffer the long term medical consequences of combat".  Actually there aren't any female Marines that have suffered the long term medical consequences of combat.  Capt. Petronio is saying that female Marines are suffering medical consequences after just short term exposure to combat conditions, and therefore could never last any appreciable time (read let down their unit) in an infantry role which is far more demanding.      

 

Spoken like someone who has never seen combat.

As an 0331 if I get hit and have to be carried out is a 120lb woman going to be able to do it? A .50 cal weighs over a 130 lbs, is a women going to be able to carry that? The Marine Corps has seperate fitness standards for men and women, if women are allowed into the infantry will they have to meet the male standards? At the end of the day the battlefield is no place for equality. In the infantry we train to do one thing and that's to kill the bad guys, all this politically correct nonsense is just that...nonsense. Men and women are different by design, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the minute you allow women into the infantry you are directly impacting our readiness and harming our overall national security.

If it is equal....

and discrimination then why do we have differenct standards for female physical fitness?  I was in the Corps 12 years and the simple fact was most if not all the females lacked either in height or strength and the males had to make up for that.  Some of the best Marines that worked for me were female, great attitude and work ethic...but the simple fact is they were not the same and brought the efficiency down.  We don't need that in combat.  There are other ways in which they are better than males, they should be in those jobs and helping make the unit better and not worse because of that. 

 

What if the physical standard

What if the physical standard is:

Muscles cannot atrophy after months of overuse and malnurtrion

Chance of infertility due to hormone inbalance in response to malnutrition and other physical consequences from the demands of sustained combat operations.

This can go on and on, the physical requirements cannot end at, "how many pullups can you do?"  There are many other physical issues with the female body that come into play... did you read the article at all?

Women in the Infantry

Let 'em in.......Only if they can meet the standard for entry AND  on an ongoing basis.

 

You clearly didn't read what she wrote.

You clearly missed the point of what she was saying, and that the combat effective readiness of the military would suffer and it would be a less effective fighting force due to the rigorous physical demands required. She CLEARY demonstrated that as a candidate she was at the top of HER game physically when it came to the requirements the US Marines expected of her, yet she said the physical decline in her combat rediness was far greater then her male infantrymen, who while effected showed far less decline. She was also clearly able to explain that the TESTING STANDARDS in the military for men and women ARE DIFFERENT with the one exception of the Infantry training, and if women were allowed then the standards would most certainly have to be changed as well. This country won't belong to it's citizen's much longer if the combat effectiveness of the US troops allows a situation where their once feared, best qualified, best trained military personnel has lowered the combat ready bar for it's soldiers because people like yourself say it's discrimination against women just because they are women. Funny thing is, this is a woman, who is also a marine, who participated in combat operations that you are saying is doing the discriminating. Talk about a narrow close minded view that only focuses on an entirely different point. This isn't about a glass ceiling keeping women from the same wages as men, it's about protecting the lives of those in a life and death situation. Only an idiot would sacrifice the lives of others for the sake of clearly inept polictical correctness. Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

Annonymous on July 5, 2012 - 2:47 am is missing the point

The Capt is not saying that being male is the measurable standard.  She is saying that the measurable standards for passing the "fitness" and "durability" based requirments are too much for women to live up to.  So they get modified so that women can pass them.  The standards are there to allow the most effective and steadfast fighting force to be deployed.  The standards were created over 200 years of Marine testing, training and real combat performance.  If the standards are modified just so women can be included that does not do women or this country any good.  It endangers the lives of the women who without modification would not qualify, it endangers the lives of their teammates and ultimatley endangers the lives and well being of the "citizens" whom this country belongs to because the fighting force is compromised.  It is not discrimination.  God (or nature depending on your viewpoint) made men physically bigger, stronger and faster and naturally more capable of the physical riggors of combat.  It is not discrimination it is just common sense.

i'm also a WM, had my first

i'm also a WM, had my first child serving active duty in Okinawa, i really don't think anyone who hasn't served in are military should have a vote, they are truely ignorant of what the infantry demands of you. Its not discrimination! If you know or seen anything about direct infantry in USMC, then you would know that the avg. woman marine is NOT equal to the avg. male marine... plain and simple....   In the corp, when doing your PFT, men run 3 miles, and woman run 3 miles, but are scored differently and giving different time lengths to complete... WHY??? cause we are PHYSICALLY created differently!!!! I'm 100% against WM's allowed to be in the infantry!!!  

WOMEN IN INFANTRY

Most people, now a days, seems to have a problem with the word discrimination. but nobody argued for women to be given a chance to serve in Infantry during the Vietnam war. The mayhem, in the name of equality, would have been horrific among women in those nasty jungles of Southeast Asia. Not all discrimation is wrong. When it is aimed at protecting women from unnecessary physical harm, early deterioration of their bodies and long lasting medical conditions, which may negate them the opportunities to have children and be mothers, that is not discrimiation. It is common sense and respect for our mothers, sisters, aunts and grandmothers. No ancient society ever even thought of sending women to war. Were they less wiser than we are because of it?   I don't think so. Well done Capt. Pretonio!

Discrimination

"... they should not be disqualified because of gender. It is discrimination plain and simple." 

It's also discrimination to place a "Male" sign on male latrine, and "Female" for the female latrine. If we were built the same, we'd only need one. Common sense and anatomy tells us that.

I cant use the female latrine when the male latrine lacks a vacancy.

Why am I discriminated against? -LOL.

Screw the equality and the political agenda for equal rights.

Combat, on the ground, in the dirt, during the fog of war, is about one thing, and one thing only- Survive.  You do WHATEVER you have to do so you and your men SURVIVE, so you can close with and kill the enemy, with your bear hands if neccessary. This is no place for a woman.

The principles which govern the citizens and the principles of the force which protects them are always at war. We're just diferent. Get over it. 

 

Women in the Infantry

As a female British officer, who has served multiple tours over a 30 year career, with several combat command appointments, on green and SF operations, and who is currently serving in AFG,  I think I can comment on the choices we have to make.

Firstly, until we do away with gender exclusion, females will always hit a glass ceiling in promotion. Likewise, posting opportunities will be limited. 

Secondly, a committed female service-person will have a life choice to make at some point, regarding family and children. In my own case, I have no children and am divorced.

However, I lived with those choices - and have no regrets. Those challenges will always remain, though.

I can also say that, as I hit my 50's, while I am a little slower now, I can still comfortably pass the physical tests for 18-28 male recruits. And I can still happily carry my gear and weapons. Of course, there is physical degradation on tours, but I know many male soldiers who have collapsed. Physical stress is not unique to women.

I can also say that as a female, I brought a huge combat plus to SF Ops. The work of the FETs have carried that on - and I would vouch for their effectiveness in current ops in AFG.

Infantry work is not for every-one. I think the Forces have traditionally not been welcoming to females. But much has changed over the past 30 years. When I first joined, we were not allowed to carry rifles - they were deemed as being "too heavy" to carry...Such attitudes seem laughable now.

Like-wise the argument over "combat effectiveness" is specious. The same tired epithets were being rolled out 60 years ago over colour, and, more recently, over sexuality. People are people, good, bad and indifferent. We should be looking for the cream, regardless of being male, female, martian, black, white, brown, purple, gay, straight or confusing.

What I am not in favour of is altering standards, or dual track testing. If you want the badge and the office, rise to the challenge. This is particularly important for female officers. Your soldiers will find it much harder to respect you if they know you have not been forged in the same fire.

This is a case of horses for courses. I don't think we'll see a lot of takers for this opportunity, but I firmly believe possession of a penis should not be the defining qualification for entry.

Level the playing field...In every way. We ARE equal - but different. 

Go Girls!

 

shhh

Serving with an SF unit does not make you SF you are a support puke. I knew your type while I was SF. You could never do what the infantry does and you are not equal. Physiology is a great subject in college you should check it out. You would break under 130 pound combat load, its science. 

Reply to your comment

In reply to your comment, I am not entirely sure what you refer to - but I will suggest that you go and check what UKSF does and you may find why we use women.

I don't break under 130 pound loads and I have earned the right to say that. Although, I have seen many of my men break. 

I would go further and say that attitudes like the one you portray are precisely why I am grateful that sensible heads have granted women this opportunity.

Infantry roles are not for everybody - but I do think that painting this issue in such emotive terms is not terribly helpful. 

My point was, and is, that exclusion from this course is unfair and discriminatory. Women are just as capable as men - and should be given the opportunity to prove their abilities on a level playing field.

 

 

No, they aren't.

I'm not sure how your generation of women can piss on people and tell them its raining with such apparent comfort. Your claims of women being as capable as men are about as scientific as the idea that maggots spontaneously arose out of meat, as they believed 200 years ago. Men hold every record of every measurement of every physical test, and there are no female runner ups. I work out 2-3 times a day, I'm not a huge guy.. 5'8, 180 lbs, no steroids and my bench max would give me a bronze medal for women in the US.. professional weight lifters. And you can bet that those few women at the top are incredibly slow and can't jump high because they are straining the extreme limits of the female anatomy. Have an honest discussion. Cut it out with the propaganda.

shhh

Serving with an SF unit does not make you SF you are a support puke. I knew your type while I was SF. You could never do what the infantry does and you are not equal. Physiology is a great subject in college you should check it out. You would break under 130 pound combat load, its science. 

Well said Anonymous

Men and women bring entirely different things to the table.  As a combat experienced officer, I am perfectly comfortable saying that I could not contribute well to the infantry, but none of my troops would question my ability to lead the units for which I am responsible.  This shouldn't be a fight between men and women of who is "better."  Neither is - we are different. Give the opportunity with same standards, just as men have to meet the same standards I do for academics, etc.

The Captain's article was well researched, non-argumentative and well-written.  Let's remember we are fighting the enemy - we don't have time to fight each other.

women in the infantry

I am a retired women officer. I would say based on over 20 years of experience that although there was never a desire on my part to be in the infantry, there were definitely some women who had the physical attributes to serve in the infantry. The biggest obstacle to overcome in my opinion is that male Marines did not women in the infantry. The good ole boys want to be the good ole boys!

Why the motivation

Captain Petronio's article may be well written, however she needs to reread Section 652 of Title 10, United States Code. This is the code that we the military must follow. Once she does, she will see what the motivation is behind getting the code changed and including women Marines into the infantry. There are no front lines in Afghanistan or Iraq. So in reality she was in ground combat even if not truly on paper.

      (4) In this subsection, the term "ground combat exclusion policy"
    means the military personnel policies of the Department of Defense
    and the military departments, as in effect on October 1, 1994, by
    which female members of the armed forces are restricted from
    assignment to units and positions below brigade level whose primary
    mission is to engage in direct combat on the ground.

Hell, because of this code, she can’t even get that new MOS she’s recommending. That and FETs can’t be assigned to infantry as infantry’s primary mission is direct combat. Even if a male Marine wanted to protect his sister soldier, he’s nowhere to be found. Instead of being assigned to male patrols, females travel in all female teams. Yeah, I said it - our females traveling alone - in Afghanistan. In reality, we are sending soldiers into hostile Afghan territory without full training in something as basic as self protection. If that’s not motivation, I don’t know what is.

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