The Marine Corps Times recently published a handful of articles in regard to opening Infantry Officer Course (IOC) to females and the possibility of integrating women into the infantry community. In mid-April the Commandant directed the “integration” of the first wave of female officers into IOC this summer following completion of The Basic School (TBS). This action may or may not pave the way for female Marines to serve in the infantry as the results remain to be seen. However, before the Marine Corps moves forward with this concept, should we not ask the hard questions and gain opinions of combat-experienced Marines (male and female alike) as to the purpose, the impact, and the gains from such a move? As a combat-experienced Marine officer, and a female, I am here to tell you that we are not all created equal, and attempting to place females in the infantry will not improve the Marine Corps as the Nation’s force-in-readiness or improve our national security.
As a company grade 1302 combat engineer officer with 5 years of active service and two combat deployments, one to Iraq and the other to Afghanistan, I was able to participate in and lead numerous combat operations. In Iraq as the II MEF Director, Lioness Program, I served as a subject matter expert for II MEF, assisting regimental and battalion commanders on ways to integrate female Marines into combat operations. I primarily focused on expanding the mission of the Lioness Program from searching females to engaging local nationals and information gathering, broadening the ways females were being used in a wide variety of combat operations from census patrols to raids. In Afghanistan I deployed as a 1302 and led a combat engineer platoon in direct support of Regimental Combat Team 8, specifically operating out of the Upper Sangin Valley. My platoon operated for months at a time, constructing patrol bases (PBs) in support of 3d Battalion, 5th Marines; 1st Battalion, 5th Marines; 2d Reconnaissance Battalion; and 3d Battalion, 4th Marines. This combat experience, in particular, compelled me to raise concern over the direction and overall reasoning behind opening the 03XX field.
Who is driving this agenda? I am not personally hearing female Marines, enlisted or officer, pounding on the doors of Congress claiming that their inability to serve in the infantry violates their right to equality. Shockingly, this isn’t even a congressional agenda. This issue is being pushed by several groups, one of which is a small committee of civilians appointed by the Secretary of Defense called the Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Service (DACOWITS). Their mission is to advise the Department of Defense (DoD) on recommendations, as well as matters of policy, pertaining to the well-being of women in the Armed Services from recruiting to employment. Members are selected based on their prior military experience or experience with women’s workforce issues. I certainly applaud and appreciate DACOWITS’ mission; however, as it pertains to the issue of women in the infantry, it’s very surprising to see that none of the committee members are on active duty or have any recent combat or relevant operational experience relating to the issue they are attempting to change. I say this because, at the end of the day, it’s the active duty servicemember who will ultimately deal with the results of their initiatives, not those on the outside looking in. As of now, the Marine Corps hasn’t been directed to integrate, but perhaps the Corps is anticipating the inevitable—DoD pressuring the Corps to comply with DACOWITS’ agenda as the Army has already “rogered up” to full integration. Regardless of what the Army decides to do, it’s critical to emphasize that we are not the Army; our operational speed and tempo, along with our overall mission as the Nation’s amphibious force-in-readiness, are fundamentally different than that of our sister Service. By no means is this distinction intended as disrespectful to our incredible Army. My main point is simply to state that the Marine Corps and the Army are different; even if the Army ultimately does fully integrate all military occupational fields, that doesn’t mean the Corps should follow suit.
I understand that there are female servicemembers who have proven themselves to be physically, mentally, and morally capable of leading and executing combat-type operations; as a result, some of these Marines may feel qualified for the chance of taking on the role of 0302. In the end, my main concern is not whether women are capable of conducting combat operations, as we have already proven that we can hold our own in some very difficult combat situations; instead, my main concern is a question of longevity. Can women endure the physical and physiological rigors of sustained combat operations, and are we willing to accept the attrition and medical issues that go along with integration?
As a young lieutenant, I fit the mold of a female who would have had a shot at completing IOC, and I am sure there was a time in my life where I would have volunteered to be an infantryman. I was a star ice hockey player at Bowdoin College, a small elite college in Maine, with a major in government and law. At 5 feet 3 inches I was squatting 200 pounds and benching 145 pounds when I graduated in 2007. I completed Officer Candidates School (OCS) ranked 4 of 52 candidates, graduated 48 of 261 from TBS, and finished second at MOS school. I also repeatedly scored far above average in all female-based physical fitness tests (for example, earning a 292 out of 300 on the Marine physical fitness test). Five years later, I am physically not the woman I once was and my views have greatly changed on the possibility of women having successful long careers while serving in the infantry. I can say from firsthand experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, and not just emotion, that we haven’t even begun to analyze and comprehend the gender-specific medical issues and overall physical toll continuous combat operations will have on females.
I was a motivated, resilient second lieutenant when I deployed to Iraq for 10 months, traveling across the Marine area of operations (AO) and participating in numerous combat operations. Yet, due to the excessive amount of time I spent in full combat load, I was diagnosed with a severe case of restless leg syndrome. My spine had compressed on nerves in my lower back causing neuropathy which compounded the symptoms of restless leg syndrome. While this injury has certainly not been enjoyable, Iraq was a pleasant experience compared to the experiences I endured during my deployment to Afghanistan. At the beginning of my tour in Helmand Province, I was physically capable of conducting combat operations for weeks at a time, remaining in my gear for days if necessary and averaging 16-hour days of engineering operations in the heart of Sangin, one of the most kinetic and challenging AOs in the country. There were numerous occasions where I was sent to a grid coordinate and told to build a PB from the ground up, serving not only as the mission commander but also the base commander until the occupants (infantry units) arrived 5 days later. In most of these situations, I had a sergeant as my assistant commander, and the remainder of my platoon consisted of young, motivated NCOs. I was the senior Marine making the final decisions on construction concerns, along with 24-hour base defense and leading 30 Marines at any given time. The physical strain of enduring combat operations and the stress of being responsible for the lives and well-being of such a young group in an extremely kinetic environment were compounded by lack of sleep, which ultimately took a physical toll on my body that I couldn’t have foreseen.
By the fifth month into the deployment, I had muscle atrophy in my thighs that was causing me to constantly trip and my legs to buckle with the slightest grade change. My agility during firefights and mobility on and off vehicles and perimeter walls was seriously hindering my response time and overall capability. It was evident that stress and muscular deterioration was affecting everyone regardless of gender; however, the rate of my deterioration was noticeably faster than that of male Marines and further compounded by gender-specific medical conditions. At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.
There is a drastic shortage of historical data on female attrition or medical ailments of women who have executed sustained combat operations. This said, we need only to review the statistics from our entry-level schools to realize that there is a significant difference in the physical longevity between male and female Marines. At OCS the attrition rate for female candidates in 2011 was historically low at 40 percent, while the male candidates attrite at a much lower rate of 16 percent. Of candidates who were dropped from training because they were injured or not physically qualified, females were breaking at a much higher rate than males, 14 percent versus 4 percent. The same trends were seen at TBS in 2011; the attrition rate for females was 13 percent versus 5 percent for males, and 5 percent of females were found not physically qualified compared with 1 percent of males. Further, both of these training venues have physical fitness standards that are easier for females; at IOC there is one standard regardless of gender. The attrition rate for males attending IOC in 2011 was 17 percent. Should female Marines ultimately attend IOC, we can expect significantly higher attrition rates and long-term injuries for women.
There have been many working groups and formal discussions recently addressing what changes would be necessary to the current IOC period of instruction in order to accommodate both genders without producing an underdeveloped or incapable infantry officer. Not once was the word “lower” used, but let’s be honest, “modifying” a standard so that less physically or mentally capable individuals (male or female) can complete a task is called “lowering the standard”! The bottom line is that the enemy doesn’t discriminate, rounds will not slow down, and combat loads don’t get any lighter, regardless of gender or capability. Even more so, the burden of command does not diminish for a male or female; a leader must gain the respect and trust of his/her Marines in combat. Not being able to physically execute to the standards already established at IOC, which have been battle tested and proven, will produce a slower operational speed and tempo resulting in increased time of exposure to enemy forces and a higher risk of combat injury or death. For this reason alone, I would ask everyone to step back and ask themselves, does this integration solely benefit the individual or the Marine Corps as a whole, as every leader’s focus should be on the needs of the institution and the Nation, not the individual?
Which leads one to really wonder, what is the benefit of this potential change? The Marine Corps is not in a shortage of willing and capable young male second lieutenants who would gladly take on the role of infantry officers. In fact we have men fighting to be assigned to the coveted position of 0302. In 2011, 30 percent of graduating TBS lieutenants listed infantry in their top three requested MOSs. Of those 30 percent, only 47 percent were given the MOS. On the other hand, perhaps this integration is an effort to remove the glass ceiling that some observers feel exists for women when it comes to promotions to general officer ranks. Opening combat arms MOSs, particularly the infantry, such observers argue, allows women to gain the necessary exposure of leading Marines in combat, which will then arguably increase the chances for female Marines serving in strategic leadership assignments. As stated above, I have full faith that female Marines can successfully serve in just about every MOS aside from the infantry. Even if a female can meet the short-term physical, mental, and moral leadership requirements of an infantry officer, by the time that she is eligible to serve in a strategic leadership position, at the 20-year mark or beyond, there is a miniscule probability that she’ll be physically capable of serving at all. Again, it becomes a question of longevity.
Despite my personal opinion regarding the incorporation of females into the infantry community, I am not blind to the fact that females play a key role in countering the gender and cultural barriers we are facing at war, and we do have a place in combat operations. As such, a potential change that I do recommend considering strongly for female Marine officers is to designate a new secondary MOS (0305) for a Marine serving as female engagement team (FET) officer in charge (OIC). 0305s would be employed in the same way we employ drill instructors, as we do not need an enduring FET entity but an existing capability able to stand up based on operational requirements. Legitimizing a program that is already operational in the Corps would greatly benefit both the units utilizing FETs and the women who serve as FET OICs. Unfortunately, FET OICs today are not properly screened and trained for this mission. I propose that those being considered for FET OIC be prescreened and trained through a modified IOC with an appropriately adjusted physical expectation. FET OICs need to better understand the infantry culture and mindset and work with their 0302 brethren to incorporate FET assistance during specific phases of operations to properly prepare them to serve as the subject matter experts to a regimental- or battalion-level infantry commander. Through joint OIC training, both 0302s and FET OICs can start to learn how to integrate capabilities and accomplish their mission individually and collectively. This, in my mind, is a much more viable, cost-effective solution, with high reward for the Marine Corps and the Nation, and it will also directly improve the capabilities of FET OICs.
Finally, what are the Marine Corps standards, particularly physical fitness standards, based on—performance and capability or equality? We abide by numerous discriminators, such as height and weight standards. As multiple Marine Corps Gazette articles have highlighted, Marines who can run first-class physical fitness tests and who have superior MOS proficiency are separated from the Service if they do not meet the Marine Corps’ height and weight standards. Further, tall Marines are restricted from flying specific platforms, and color blind Marines are faced with similar restrictions. We recognize differences in mental capabilities of Marines when we administer the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery and use the results to eliminate/open specific fields. These standards are designed to ensure safety, quality, and the opportunity to be placed in a field in which one can sustain and succeed.
Which once again leads me, as a ground combat-experienced female Marine Corps officer, to ask, what are we trying to accomplish by attempting to fully integrate women into the infantry? For those who dictate policy, changing the current restrictions associated with women in the infantry may not seem significant to the way the Marine Corps operates. I vehemently disagree; this potential change will rock the foundation of our Corps for the worse and will weaken what has been since 1775 the world’s most lethal fighting force. In the end, for DACOWITS and any other individual or organization looking to increase opportunities for female Marines, I applaud your efforts and say thank you. However, for the long-term health of our female Marines, the Marine Corps, and U.S. national security, steer clear of the Marine infantry community when calling for more opportunities for females. Let’s embrace our differences to further hone in on the Corps’ success instead of dismantling who we are to achieve a political agenda. Regardless of the outcome, we will be “Semper Fidelis” and remain focused on our mission to protect and defend the United States of America.




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Comments
makes sense
I was in the Navy in a galaxy far far away. (lol) In other words I'm old. I can't relate with all the loads these poor grunts are humping these days. I go to the VA for back problems. I've had these kids tell me they carry almost two hundred pounds. (that's got to be an exageration) I'm thinking that, and this is just my opinion, that paratroopers are going to become an "epidemic" at local VAs from herniated discs caused by jumping out of airplanes and landing with those ungodly amount of weight they're saddled with. (even if it's not two hundred pounds I know its a lot.) I'd appreciate some feedback on this. I've been tortured for years by the VA by doctors who are more concerned with covering their ass then treating my pain with the opoids I needed. People who have never been in pain, and doctors are the worst, can't relate.
Oh yeah; the comment that made the most sense here was the one where the two gals petered out on the trail and had to be picked up and the guy commented that he hoped they could live with themselves if the people picking them up hit an IED. If that doesn't bring it home I don't know what does. I've read about half the article so far and like with most things like this it sounds like politics and a special elite few calling the shots for the many.
Here's another question; what's been the scuttlebutt on the talk that Obummer is judging his picks for generals on whether they'd fire on civilians? Here's another question: would you fire on civilians if your general (or Admiral) told you to?
Larry A. Singleton
Riverside CA
larryasingleton@yahoo.com
Women in combat
I served as a police officer in a large city for twenty-two years, more than half of that time on patrol. I'm 5-5 and not particularly athletic but I was a very successful patrol officer because the vast majority of policiing, even on the street, is about communication. It didn't matter that I wasn't 5-8 (the pre-female officer standard for our department) or that I could never get over a six foot fence using only my upper body strength. Neither could most 40-year-old male officers. But I could talk any mentally disturbed person we encounterd into the backseat of the cruiser. I did that 2-3 times a week. I faced going over a six-foot fence 2-3 times in my whole career.
While your comments may seem to encourage equal opportunity for women, they do not.
That said, policing and combat are not the same thing. Like fire fighting, it is largely a physical endeavor. I don't agree with the author of the article on mental fitness. I think that women can and do match men on mental strength based on the fact that the men that I worked with spent a great engaging in dangerous stress-relieving behaviors. The women, who faced much more difficult work conditions on a day-to-day basis, were much less likely to spend their off-duty time getting drunk, screwing anyone they could and beating up their spouses.
There are a few women who can be good firefighters and there are undoubtedly a few women who could be good combat Marines. I do agree with the author of the article that opening combat assignments, as currently defined, to women would be a mistake and would not serve women or the Marine Corps well. That doesn't mean that other changes can't be made that allow women more access to top leadership assignments in the Marine Corps.
Women in Combat
I think this person above me is a feminist to the extreme...yeah men may have more reported abuse cases or alchohol related incidents but thats because of our size and hormonal make-up...more women hit men its just we suck it up and say oh it was a girl but lord help if a man slaps a woman how they slap us we get called out for abuse and all sorts of things...I am not saying we are perfect but women definately do not have the mental strengths needed for combat maybe for your job as a police officer there are some but like this Female Officer states...we are not all created equal...get over it!
Women in combat from a Police Officer
You can't talk your gear over a mountain in Afghanistan. and what if that "mentally disturbed" man attacked you? You can't talk him off of you. I respect you and your career choice to serve others but your argument there does not fit the discussion.
"You cant talk you gear over
"You cant talk you gear over the mountain" sorry but i really had a chuckle when you said that :) but in all seriousness, comparing driving around in a patrol car and doing foot patrols with basically zero stressors both physical or mental to the jobs of a infantry soldier is an insult to the us who have been there done that.
Well Said.
You most certainly can not talk your gear over a mountain. I'm sure there are some pretty tough gals out there. I'm sure those gals could hump 200 pounds for a while. Given the stature, physical composition, and hormonal difference, I sincerely doubt it would be a long distance. I'm not one of those guys who is "afraid of a woman succeeding in a man's world". I'm simply not willing to risk the lives of my guys because the woman in the squad can't hump her own weight.
The Infantry squad is, hands friggen' down, the backbone of any armed conflict. They can do anything, anywhere, anytime- because the lives of their buddies depend on it. The bond between men in an Infantry squad is like no other I have observed during the course of my life. The addition of women into the Infantry squad would be tragic. This would utterly turn the squad's level of cohesion and unity upside-down faster than anything. The female wold become the center of attention, and the butt-end of every joke. Morale would be a crushing weight dragging the squad down into the dirt. The deouble-standards that exist now for female PT and height/weight would become a huge issue.
All nonsense aside, I weigh over 350 pounds with my full fighting load, weapon, radio, and ruck. I don't weigh any less because a female is trying to move me. I will still weigh 350 pounds when a female is trying to move me off a mountain.
- From an Infantry Squad Leader currently deployed.
Carrying Weight DOES make a difference
Here is a personal experence that adds to your comments: We were on a foot patrol with the "Lionesses" outside our COP. No packs just PPE (Personal Protective Equiptment for you civilians) and about halfway through the patrol TWO of the females dropped and said they could not take another step. The equiptment was too heavy and they were in pain. We had to radio back and the COC dispatched vehicles to pick us up. While we were waiting, the GySgt said to them "God help your Conscience if those vehicles hit an IED because you can't carry your weight."
Saw the same things when I
Saw the same things when I was in, and it started as far back as OCS. The females couldn't hump the same ruck, they had to carry mediums, could never hump the 60, spare barrel and ammo. Lots of serious injuries, blown knees, backs, etc. And these were women in he prime of their lives, athletes, the best the service had! Stop with the PC nonsense folks.
Being a grunt is hands down the most physically demanding job in the services. I enlisted when AI was 17 and it almost kicked my 6 foot 220 lb butt. This like saying the NFL needs to open up line backer positions for women. Bad idea.
Carrying Weight DOES make a difference
Here is a personal experence that adds to your comments: We were on a foot patrol with the "Lionesses" outside our COP. No packs just PPE (Personal Protective Equiptment for you civilians) and about halfway through the patrol TWO of the females dropped and said they could not take another step. The equiptment was too heavy and they were in pain. We had to radio back and the COC dispatched vehicles to pick us up. While we were waiting, the GySgt said to them "God help your Conscience if those vehicles hit an IED because you can't carry your weight."
Two Main Reasons Against It...
Number one - physical. A man and a woman of the same height and weight will have different levels of muscle mass. That's just a fact of biology. So there's the strength factor. Then you consider the fact that female athletes are something like 4 times more likely to have a knee injury - that's something that will immediately show up in Marine infantry if they force integration (I dunno, something to do with wider hips and legs that aren't built for running down mammoths?) Then you have the absence of testosterone, which is a hell of a drug, by the way. The reason why screaming at recruits about what p*ssies they are motivates them is because of testosterone - it's a challenge to one's manhood, and that triggers a spike in testosterone. The same thing happens when there's a conflict brewing - it boosts testosterone levels. Women simply do not possess this trait because their bodies are setup for bearing children, and that presents with opportunity costs - you can't have narrow hips built for running if you have to pass a baby through them. You can't have low body fat and high muscle mass if your body is setup to store fat for pregnancy. You can't be a very good nurturer if your body is coarsing with hormones that make you more aggressive and aloof.
The second - unit morale. The introduction of females into a group of males totally destroys any cohesion. When spending months on a deployment, it is inevitable that, living in close quarters, there will be hooking up. Morale will be destroyed, and morale is vital to saving lives and killing enemies. I haven't served, but I did go to a school that was 80% male and 20% female. The imbalance was disastrous for male morale on campus, but it made things easy for the females. Competition was off the charts. I can only imagine what that sort of ratio would do to an infantry unit.
Then there's the problems introduced by having that female around that several of the males have hooked up with when the s*** starts flying - are people gonna do stupid s*** because they're thinking with their d*** instead of their head?
From an Infantry Squad Leader(multiple deployments)
A police officer in the states getting attack by a crazy person in the states is not the same. Not saying its not dangerous because it very much is.The physical output is not the same as a combat soldier. That happening on a deployment is a quick funny story. Carrying your shot friend that weighs 310lbs in gear in dead weight up a mountain. While you are in the same gear and weight is really hard especally while fighting. jumping to the ground then back up multiple times,climbing walls, knoking down doors all in the same day and the gear doesnt come off until the jobs done so i think "talking you gear over a mountain" is short for that.
From an Infantry Squad Leader(multiple deployments)
A police officer in the states getting attack by a crazy person in the states is not the same. Not saying its not dangerous because it very much is.The physical output is not the same as a combat soldier. That happening on a deployment is a quick funny story. Carrying your shot friend that weighs 310lbs in gear in dead weight up a mountain. While you are in the same gear and weight is really hard especally while fighting. jumping to the ground then back up multiple times,climbing walls, knoking down doors all in the same day and the gear doesnt come off until the jobs done so i think "talking you gear over a mountain" is short for that.
Just Curious
You said: "I could never get over a six foot fence using only my upper body strength. Neither could most 40-year-old male officers.."
Where was this, exactly?
I'm fast approaching 60 years old and I can still pull myself up a rope, over an obstacle, and lift double my 210 lbs. And I haven't seriously exercised in more years than I like to recall.
Though injuries do serve as valid excuses for no longer running 10 miles . . .
Being a police officer is NOT
Being a police officer is NOT the same thing as being a Marine, so don't compare apples to oranges.
Women in Combar
MGySgt Garza, and I retire this Sunday after 28 yrs 3 mos, my first encounter with female Marines was in 1976 in Okinawa, Japan when I was with 3rd Marine Division but, since my first time setting boots on the yellow steps in MCRD in 1974 I never thought that the female Marines would join to fight on the front lines of combat. Now 2012 and going into 2013 who knows what will happen.
I was in Iraq in 2008-2009 and as the company 1stSgt for motor transport I had the honor of being in charge of 11 females marines that drove the 7-tons, mechanics, ops, and on the terrets on convoys that would take hours to get to any destination. But, my thing about female marines in combar is "consistency". You might have two maybe three that can carry what a male marines carry in a hump (8-12-20 miles) but, having to wait becasues they broke a finger nail or its their time to stop for person reasons (if you know what I mean)! or carrying their weapons (.50 cal) or anything heavier we as male Marines don't have to carry their equipment. I really think it will cause more harm that good to the rest of us if ther're going to be skimmish if they see a dead body or he they shoot and kill one of the enemy!
equal OPPORTUNITY!
Couldn't have said it better, "Anonymous." This is simply a matter of opportunity. I'm a SSgt in the Marine Corps with more than 10 years of service. Men and women break down physically. It's part of the job. Additionally, women have a higher body fat percentage. The weight the captain loss could have simply been fat. Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) is "a common hormonal disorder among women of reproductive age" (MayoClinic) and "cannot be prevented" (webMd). The condition was not caused by her combat experience, in other words. Marines, regardless of sex, have the freedom to volunteer for this elite fighting force, and accept the toll (physical mental) that the job requires. Regardless of your opinion whether females should serve in the infantry, they are already in combat. So, get over THAT. Denying an opportunity based on gender or sex is DISCRIMINATION at its finest no matter how good of a reason you can come up with.
... discrimination?
So, as the author pointed out, not allowing males or females who are tall serve on certain ships is discrimination. Not allowing people with sight problems fly planes (not even giving them a chance) is discrimination. We discriminate all the time and for the most part there is a reason behind it. I am all for women having equal opportunities, so get rid of the different PT qualifications let women do pull ups and have the same scoring as men ... what will happen? Many will get stuck not being promoted. So if you want equality it goes both ways. I agree there are some women who could hack it and some men who still cant ... but the fact is allowing women into this particular field is a major mistake ... I have served with Females and experienced first hand how much extra effort has gone into helping them out and encouraging them durring simple PT ... then the pat on the back when they are drug through it ... it isnt pretty but it is the truth. If this happens to a male Marine he goes no where in his career and takes it pretty hard. Durring most of my courses when this happens to a woman the same action isn't taken ... men don't like to be rough on women and screaming at them doesnt yield the same effect that it does with a male. Again I know there are special cases on both sides (men not taking it and women being able to) but do we need to risk lives based on the chance that a few can take it?
HMM.....
I am not in the service, but I'm signing up. In my opinion, I would not want someone who cannot see providing me air support. The military sets standards for a reason, I guess, that's why they're on the front lines.
Equal Opportunity
I hate to get personal, but you are an inexperienced IDIOT!! I suggest you read Well Said's comment. I do NOT want some 120-140 pound female trying to pull me out of a fire fight with 300+ pounds of muscle and gear on my back. I am PRETTY sure that is the PROFESSIONAL opinion of the majority of infantry marines, soldiers, or sailors serving in real, deep, combat positions.
Former Marine / Current Police Officer
That's it exactly. The best
That's it exactly. The best way I can put it to non-infantry types is the infantry is a lot like the defensive line in football. Equality loses, every single time. You must have the biggest, strongest, baddest people for he job because that's what the job requires. It's a 100% physical job.
And Technology doesn't change anything. It's called ground pounding for a reason, you are the weapon, you carry everything, and it weighs a lot. Way more than you can imagine, and you do it Every Single Day. And the tech makes it worse,not better, it's more gear to hump!
It's simple, just ask infantrymen what it takes to done job and stop comparing non-infantry jobs to it. There's no comparison. That's not discrimination, that's common sense. It's a basic qualifier, you gotta be able to do the job, day in, day out, with no special help by lowering the PT standards. And don't kid yourself, we lower the PT standards for women because they are weaker, period.
In some jobs, that doesn't matter, but in the infantry, as with defensive linemen inf football, it's all about Strength with a capital S.
Stupid comment
No, it is not all fat! That is an uniformed statement - fat is the LAST thing to break down, after carbs and proteins (muscle) have been doing so for some time.
Are you joking? Fat is second
Are you joking? Fat is second thing to go, only after carbs, if your body is eating it's own proteins is because you are malnourished.
PCOS cannot be blamed on
PCOS cannot be blamed on stress, or combat... and I'm not sure why the officer describing her experience has come to the conclusion that it is related to her service, as it is a condition that basically exists throughout a woman's life, and isn't "Brought on" by anything... though it may not always manifest .symptoms outwardly...
BUT... Just because a woman wants to, does not mean that she has the right to take the lives of other people into her hands and force them to trust her smaller frame, and lower endurance, and weaker muscle mass. As one commenter already said- he won't cease to weigh 350lbs just because a female marine is trying to drag him away.
What IS discrimination, is the injustice of allowing women to get into combat roles without meeting the SAME EXACT standards that the men have to meet... not standards "adjusted for gender"- because if you are going to claim that women deserve to be able to do the same job- they need to be able to do it JUST as well... not just "well enough to pass the tests for women".
I don't want my military guys out there dying because some woman wasn't able to pull them out of harm's way because they weighed too much for her.
Men and women have different physiologies, different strengths, different weaknesses.... and it's about time that we quit catering to the feminazis and stopped ignoring the differences. We are equal... but DIFFERENT. Seriously. And if you want to have men and women performing the same tasks... they'd better take the same test to prove their competence. Professionals have to pass tests and exams to demonstrate that they meet the standards... the standard for being a nurse doesn't change based on the attributes of the people taking the tests.... so.... why should it be any different in the military?
gender issues with women in combat
There are strong women just as there are strong guys, just as there are small framed guys that might not be able to lift as much either. In the military you are supposed to work as a team for the common good. So help each other, some people are built for heavy stuff, some for mechanical aptitude, some for mathmatical ability, we are all different. I know some girls that are awesome shots that would be great snipers, just as I know some guys who are squeamish in some areas but great in others. Not everyone is cut of the same cloth, but if someone has the bravery and strength to do a job in the military, they should be given the opportunity. I appreciate ALL our soldiers.
Leave Medical to the Medical Experts
It takes more than just reading about medical diagnosis's and their signs and symptoms. It may appear to be common and it may appear that her deployment was not the cause of her diagnosis. The question is for you, How do you know? and Are you a medical professional?
I am a former FMF Corpsman with more time in service both in the Navy and Marine Corps handing out pink band aids to Marines for their boo boos. I have come across Leaders like you. Just because you took CPR or read a medical article you are some medical expert.
The warriors that have served in the sand box know what is actually going on with the genders. This whole thing is fueled by political radicals.
It is not DISCRIMINATION if it is FACT.
Women in Military or combat
Isn't that nice... the politically correct answer; however, I too served, for 21 years in the Marine Corps. I have been shot, stabbed and broken numerous bones to include my neck, several times. Started out enlisted, made Gunnery Sergeant and was promoted into the WO ranks with eighteen years in a very demanding joint service MOS; and the bottom line is that the Army as a whole simply does not meet the Marine Corps standard. There are endless historical events that witness this fact. So for you to say that because you were a CSM you set the standard of an example that women can and should be in combat is erroneous at best. Sorry, no offense intended. I had a very good friend that was a female Marine that I would have put next to most men in many respects; however, she and I discussed numerous times the fact that women have no place in combat. It is not fair to them or even more to the men. Period. If I am wrong, then lets mandate women ON all professional sports teams and do away with womens and mens teams and require mixed gender teams with equal gender representation and for all Olympic events for US teams regardless of what other countries do. I dare say the US Medal count will disappear entirely, much less Gold. If you consider this honestly, you and others will have to admit it. Or, you can deny it and keep drinking the kool-aid.
Spell Check
Didn't they teach you to spell check at the Academy?
If you make CSM you are political...who are you trying to fool?
And giving wonem a chance means more men dying trying to cover for them...
I too think you are a fraud
Real Retired Vet
I appreciate your service to
I appreciate your service to the United States. My family has served since before it was called the United States. But women are going to be sucessful in combat because they have a wide range of skills - physical strength is only one factor, and women can multi-task well. (That's not to say that men's hard wired ability to focus on one thing exclusively is not an incredibly important ability.)
That being said, unless America were under direct attack. my personal ethics about killing other people are so rigid that I would do everything possible to keep my four children, responsible citizens all, from any combat role.
topics of our time
I think it's fair. All ideologies destroy identity.
jeux roulette gratuit
I agree. Religious
I agree. Religious dogma/bullshit [aka "designed differently" (for a certain purpose--makin dem stupid religious children & stayin in the kitchen)] should never be used as an arguement for anything & if it is used, that person automatically loses the arguement
/post
your right!!! as a 48 yr old
your right!!! as a 48 yr old male, i am going to get pregnant... and you cant argue against it on grounds i am male.... good job tought police...
Women in the Infantry
The article is indeed well written. I would challenge Capt Petronio, however about Marines that are excluded from certain MOS (jobs) based on physical or mental attributes. Those Marines that are too tall or color blind are excluded for a condition that does not attain a measurable standard... if being female is the arguement for not attaining a measurable standard then we have far greater problems than women in the infantry. There are plenty of Marines both male and female that suffer the long term medical consequences of combat - this is the sacrifice they sign up for. This country belongs to its citizens and if a person can meet the testing standard required for any MOS then they should not be disqualified because of gender. It is discrimination plain and simple.
You've obviously never served
You've obviously never served in the infantry. You and the DoD need to worry less about "equality" and more about "quality." Opening the infantry, both Marine and Army, up to women does absolutely nothing to improve the quality of our combat arms.
This comment has been deleted.
"You've obviously never
And you have never been on an ambush patrol during your third straight week out in the jungle.
Calm down trained killer....
Why are you so angry? Did you read the article? Are you trying to prove your manhood or how tough you are? The point to the article was not integrating women into infantry.... Relax.
Sun
You need to read. The person wasn't trying to prove anything based upon the article. He was talking to the person in the comment section.
Drop the cliche
I am SOooooo sick of hearing "is your manhood threatened?". Get off it. Men and Women ARE different. We used to respect women and never expose them to the horrors of combat.
Guess I'm too old fashioned, but when I'm in a fight, I want the strongest and strudiest with me.
Funny. I dont care if theyre
Funny. I dont care if theyre the strongest and the sturdiest. I want whoever will win the fight. I dont care if its a cross eyed guy in a wheelchair if hes got the skills I need. Or dont brains count?
women in combat
What a crock. Women haven't been excluded from combat out of respect. They've been excluded because combat has always been a contest between men about whose penis is bigger and women don't have one. All war is about whose is bigger because men think that being more potent means that they deserve the prize, be it the most women or someone else's land or factory.
ROFL
The "What a crock" comment hands down has been my favorite I've ever read on this matter of women in combat/infantry. I don't know why it's so funny to me, but maybe the fact that there's some serious truth to it. Personally, I'm undecided where I stand on the whole issue, however I'd be really interested to see a TV show following an all-women combat unit..... On second thought, nah. It would either be tons of drama or BORING. Yeah, cuz aside from sex, girls just tend be on the boring side. Guys seem to always have more fun, and I think it stems from their drive to compete in physical feats. (I mean, take Moto GP for example. There's ZERO reason why a girl can't chase the dream there, but where are they?) Girls just want to join in the reindeer games, but seriously, when have women in and of themselves banded together to actually physically fight something?? I'm guessing any example folks would give, you'd find passive actions being their tatics not the direct fire-in-the-hole way guys do it. Anyhow, this article touches on something new that is very enlightening: stamina. Girls will intensely workout to make it into a 'boy's club', but those same guys she's trying to compete with are putting in HALF the effort she is. Meaning, they've got a lot more to give and she's already near maxed out. I think this author did a good job highlighting the fact that anybody in that near maxed out state for an extended time, is going to end up with some serious health problems. Women need more rest/recovery and train-up time to be able to operate as well as men. (Remember the WW2 factory hours example?) I think plenty of female service members could make the cut to kick it with the guys, but for how long will the be able to MAINTAIN that standard is the real question? Oh, and what would become of a pregnant 0311? I mention pregnancy and all, because it's unique in that it's like your body goes through a train wreck but it's NORMAL. Some women seem to never be able to get into their pre-baby condition no matter how much effort -think c-section or botched epidural. So that means all that training to make her a grunt was waisted time and money because of a routine/normal thing in a woman's life -bearing children. Don't tell me forcing girls on birth control is the answer, cuz that's just whack! The point here, is while women are plenty tough, they have to earnestly work to get that way. Still, I think women could play important roles within the military that have them within combat situations (like FET's,) but it goes without saying that extra care has to be implemented to facilitate females, period. (Pun, intended? lol)
The courage of "anonymous"
Marines are a combat force. Either an individual meets the standard to be part of that, or they don't. A height/weight/strength waiver is not going to cut it. Men are the "combat models" of the human race, and women are not. There are females who are extraordinary, who can perform nearly as well as a median male Marine, but how many examples of Xena Warrior Princess are there in the population? Is it useful/practical/reasonable TO THE USMC to include females (while outprocessing them early and often for breakage or failure to meet the standard, compared to males) in the combat and forward deployed MOS's?
When encountering a bar full of off-duty Marines overseas, always buy first drink. It never gets cheaper than that, and they will remember you positively.
I would encourage females to join my service, the United States Air Force, where they can use their minds, superior attention to detail, and ability to endure tedious repetition in the service of their country. Even in the USAF, most females don't belong in MP/LE/Fire/CombatArms jobs, and might think twice about Engineering battalions. Where I saw females do very well was in back-shop support functions, where the ability to cooperate/communicate well and understand the needs of the job matched their capabilities. Demanding that a woman work at 100% of her physical ability to do a thing a man does at 50% should be a war readiness reserve behavior, not something to use during normal training/operations, because she deserves a reasonable chance of surviving 20 years of service and not being crippled at 38. Thus, we observe reality, and the reality is that women, and the nation, are best served by the finest/strongest/toughest male Marines that can be found.
Life isn't fair. Get over it and get to work with what you have.
Cheers.
A supurb REMF USAF 32450/2P051 troop for 6.5 years. Air conditioned, rarely included heavy lifting, tough problems solved.
"anonymous" -meh.
Here here!
Wow! The common sense you seem to possess is so.....UNcommon among so many. From a brother in arms in the USMC (Prior service 8 years, police officer for the past 7+ years), thank you for your service to our country.
Air Force culture
Speaking as a former SF medic, I always admired the Air Force for one reason-They mostly send their OFFICERS off to die while the enlisted scum salute them from the tarmac and say, "Good luck, Sir!"
Simply Amazing....
Your comment was amazing and I hope you get peace prize for this. I've been screaming the same thing for the last seven years of my career... As for the article and everyone's opinion on it, I could so care less. Do what you want. You have one life so why did you waste some of it writing dumb, disrespectful, and poorly written comments about something that will never affect any of you in your life time. It may; however, affect your grand children and great-grands for those of you who are a bit older.
Simply Amazing
You must be high, this will affect us way sooner than when I have grandkids. Try in the next few years...
WTF?
You really shouldn't be posting on a topic like this. You have no idea what you're talking about. War is intense, extremely physical and mental. You're against war, as is every Marine I've served with. Fine. However, don't spout off against the men and women who protect your liberty to say such things, and then belittle them for doing it. Maybe you've never served, and maybe you have served. Either way, your gripe isn't with the soldier or the Marine, it is with the human race. Deal with it.
Strongest and Sturdiest
The Marine Corps has such variety amongst its ranks. Have you see Marines in action? Plenty of the women can out-perform the men physically and in combat simulated situations. We are ALL well trained. Equally trained. The strongest and sturdiest does not always have a penis.
Respectfully,
SSgt, USMC
SSgt, USMC "Strongest and Sturdiest"
Silly comment, yet to see a women in almost 20 years who can hang with an average grunt. Between pyshical strength, endurance, size, etc....it is just silly to make that statment. I am sorry you were not born as a man, I am sorry I was not born a terribly gifted swimmer or olympic level athlete but I got over it. Get over it.
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